My apologies (now re: Sonderregiment "Dirlewanger")

fons · Post by **fons** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:04 am

Paddy Keating wrote:Now, there's something to be researched...

Hans-Peter Klausch "Antifaschisten in SS-Uniform"

Very hard to get, but worth looking for.
Took me years to get a copy. Very recommended!

greetings,
fons

Paddy Keating · Post by **Paddy Keating** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:05 pm

Thanks for that, Fons! I know that Adrian Weale was working on a documentary on this subject, together with a book. When you try to explain it to most people, they look at you as if you are mad...

PK

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:19 pm

Just as a matter of interest - when did White Phosphorous become prohibited? It was in use in the Pacific at least during WWII, by both American and Commonwealth troops in a limited form in grenades. There's famous colour footage of it in combat use, it proved to be VERY useful for jungle bunkers.

Dirlewanger · Post by **Dirlewanger** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:53 pm

an excerpt from the link to the Times article further back in this thread Phylo

"Protocol III of the UN's 1980 Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons expressly forbids the use of white phosphorus against civilian targets or military targets in civilian areas. The United States has not signed up to that protocol, although Britain has.

But America is a signatory to the Chemical Weapons Convention, which it ratified in 1997, and that agreement forbids the use of any substance to kill or harm either soldiers or civilians if it is being used mostly for its toxicity."

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:11 am

Hi RC,

The Times is owned by Rupert Murdoch, who also owns Fox News. It is hardly likely to take an excessively anti-American line. There are other papers here that do, such as the Independent or Guardian, but the Times isn't one of them.

Cheers,

Sid.

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:17 am

Hi Phylo,

The prohibition certainly predates 1980, as I was aware of it in Rhodesia several years before. I was told by Dr. Dell at Mtoko in 1978. Doc Dell carried WP grenades himself.

I think that WP was probably technically illegal from after WWI, when chemical weapons restrictions first came in. I know the Austrians thought they couldn't even use tear gas against Communist rebels in February 1934, and so used a combination of practice and real artillery rounds on their positions in housing blocks.

Cheers,

Sid.

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:22 am

Hi Paddy,

Can you put the GD stuff up again? There is a tendency to overlook Heer atrocities in favour of W-SS ones. A prime example is 1st Mountain Division on Corfu in late 1943.

Cheers,

Sid.

Andy H · Post by **Andy H** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:40 am

sid guttridge wrote:Hi Paddy,

Can you put the GD stuff up again? There is a tendency to overlook Heer atrocities in favour of W-SS ones. A prime example is 1st Mountain Division on Corfu in late 1943.

Cheers,

Sid.

and as I mentioned earlier, the massacres commited by the 7th Panzer against French colonial troops in http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22234
and the massacre of Belgians by the 225th ID in http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22582

Regards

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:51 am

White Phosphorus - In "Steel Victory" which is about the US GHQ tank battalions it is stated that Patton and others preferred WP shells to flamethrower tanks for work against fortifications. (FT were however used widely in pacific)

In "Deathtraps" there is a story of two Tiger II being knocked out by WP - the crews thought they were on fire and bailed. (in '45 in Germany)

Patton was known to prefer WP in air raids because of "its surrender inducing qualities"

Sid - my own feelings about WP are simple - I never would carry those damned wp grenades! Always afraid they'd go off and fry me!

Remember FramTam - Rhodesia's answer to Napalm?

cheers
Reb

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:00 am

Reb, in WWII they very often DID! High temp and jungle humidity made them cook off by all accounts. A bit unfortunate when USMC and Army had that habit of carrying them on their webbing and pockets by the spoons! Which themselves were prone to bend and deform from rattling around with the wieght of the grenade hanging from them, until the pin wasn't secure.....

panzerschreck1 · Post by **panzerschreck1** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:49 am

Paddy Keating !,what about the liking of very young girls by Dirlewanger which he already started in his Freikorps time!

Brave? When the situation was apropriate for brave actions he acted brave against vastly outnumbered partisans in White Russia that is!

But did he acted brave in Warsaw? What do you exactly know about Dirlewanger Paddy ? not much i'd say!!!!

Dirlewanger was brave in evil terms,,, this man had absolutaly no respect whatsoever for human life, any man like that can't possibly act brave in battle just suicidal....man... And what about the praising after action reports???? fiction....yes it came in quite handy for climbing the promotional ladder and receiving awards... any man with no respect for life itself cant possibly act brave on the enemy and especially for his own troops...Paddy acknowledging Dirlewanger was a brave soldier is a fierce non-forgiving insult for all the brave Wehrnmacht soldiers who did brave things and were not by far comparable to that sick bastard...

And anyone sure he really died....Proof!!!!????

Does anyone has any proof he was actually beaten to Death in that prison camp...i personally more believe he survived and joined the egyptian army...why Bergers testimony on the Nurnberg trial is just to concrete to dismiss it, and never had that investigated....

panzerschreck1 · Post by **panzerschreck1** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:13 am

Read this! the only first hand account about the by then Dirlewanger brigade in French L Macleans book you can't find accurate accounts why cause French used only promotional accounts ofcourse they were brave!!!! HAAAAAHAAAHAAA using civilians as shields BRAAAAVEEEE!!!

http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/schenk.htm

Any one doubting still about the brave Dirlewanger.....

Rajin Cajun · Post by **Rajin Cajun** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:19 am

Sid,

I would also not call Fox News pro-American they are pro-neocon but thats not in the best interest of America. I would have to say there is not a single news organization that actually cares about America to them its about turning profits by reporting a certain political slant.

Paddy Keating · Post by **Paddy Keating** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:44 am

panzerschreck1 wrote:Paddy Keating !,what about the liking of very young girls by Dirlewanger which he already started in his Freikorps time!

What about it?

Brave? When the situation was apropriate for brave actions he acted brave against vastly outnumbered partisans in White Russia that is!

But did he acted brave in Warsaw? What do you exactly know about Dirlewanger Paddy ? not much i'd say!!!!

What makes you think I approve of Dirlewanger? English obviously isn't your first language but please read what I wrote without trying to see meanings that are just not there.

Dirlewanger was brave in evil terms,,, this man had absolutaly no respect whatsoever for human life, any man like that can't possibly act brave in battle just suicidal....man...

This is the most stupid statement I have read in a long time. Courage is not a virtue limited to angels.

And what about the praising after action reports???? fiction....yes it came in quite handy for climbing the promotional ladder and receiving awards... any man with no respect for life itself cant possibly act brave on the enemy and especially for his own troops...

Of course he was self-promoting. Did anyone here suggest otherwise. But again, you display your ignorance of human nature and man in all his states when you assert that a murderous, cruel man cannot also be brave. History proves you wrong in this.

Paddy acknowledging Dirlewanger was a brave soldier is a fierce non-forgiving insult for all the brave Wehrnmacht soldiers who did brave things and were not by far comparable to that sick bastard...

You're just nursing a grudge against me because I exposed you previously when you made foolish statements like this. And once again, you have shown yourself unfit to participate in adult statements.

And anyone sure he really died....Proof!!!!????

Does anyone has any proof he was actually beaten to Death in that prison camp...i personally more believe he survived and joined the egyptian army...

Oh dear...the Egyptian army? I can just see Dirlewanger in charge of El Gamil as 3 PARA jumped. If people like Dirlewanger had been in that army, sonny, the Egyptians might have been able to put up a better fight than they did against the various people who attacked Egypt in the late 1940s and the 1950s. He was an effective anti-terrorist fighter, after all, even if he did like underage girls.

PK

panzerschreck1 · Post by **panzerschreck1** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:37 am

Ok i might have overreacted a little , but there is as much proof for Dirlewangers death then him serving in a foreign army...

And then again in my own language i would be happy to debate with you in a very adult manner.....but then again i'm afraid you don't know any dutch ....(which is no problem by the way

)

And there's no grudge about you......and adressing me on eventual faults is something i can only respect after all i am here to learn from the more experienced....the way why i react in a fierce matter is cause its the internet, and its easier to come across more conflicting then in real life...

No grudging from me PK....

All the best

Oh forgot almost have you atleast read the link i posted about Mathias Schenk he was a sturmpionier attached to the Dirlewanger brigade....if so you must had noted that the eyewitness saw Dirlewanger always under very good cover ...ordering his men forward on suicidal targets....come on now ....that you can't hardly ca;ll brave....if you do not agree on this with me please show me some eyewitness account that describes the utmost of bravour by mr D in battle...In white russia maybe,....well make sure to look for any parts that do mention the partisans were vastly outnumbered by D's men and the several security regiments assisting him,cause its much more easy to act brave in battle if the odds are way off like many anti partisan actions in white russia....

PS1