My apologies (now re: Sonderregiment "Dirlewanger")

[Tom Houlihan]

Gentlemen, I just made a mistake.

In the process of locking a thread that had gone way off topic, I accidentally deleted the whole thing.

I am sorry.

[Dirlewanger]

Don't need to apologise Tom, don't sound that it was much of a loss, Anyway good of you to let us know that it was accidently deleted.

[Paddy Keating]

My dear Tomás,

No problem. We were talking about the advance of the SS-Totenkopf-Division on Lyon. We'd established that the Großdeutschland Regiment was just as murderous to the Senegalese POWs as the TK lads. In fact, maybe we should make a new thread about this.

P

[Dirlewanger]

Yes Paddy, please do. I agree that a new thread should be started, not that Grossdeutschland is Waffen SS (but not lily white as some would have us beleive either) but it is very relevant that the incidents with the massacre of the Sengalese troopers by Totenkopf and GD is available in the forum for future reference.

[Troy Tempest]

Hi Dirlewanger, I know it's none of my business, and I'm not trying to make trouble or anything, but I was wondering why you are using that particular avatar and screen name? Does Dr Dirlewanger and his notorious brigade have anything that warrants any maintaining of their memory in anything other than a bad way mate? Are you interested in Dr Dirlewanger or his unit? Or did you just like the picture? Once again, I'm not trying to make any trouble, I'm just interested why you picked him!

Troy

[Dirlewanger]

To remind us that such people arise when the circumstances permit.

Dirlewanger is not a well known reprobate outside communitys like this and even some here don't know much about the Dirlewanger Brigade. That he was an arsehole is beyond doubt and he finally paid the price for that.

With all his character faults Dirlewanger was personally also extemely brave and a dedicated patriot to the cause he believed in.

Among many books I own and have read is French McLeans "The Cruel Hunters" a history of the Dirlewanger Brigade that is sober reading.

The nomdeplume is also due to my controversial nature

The atavar is not the collar insignia for the Dirlewangers
their patch was two crossed rifles with a grenade underneath.

[Paddy Keating]

That's very true. Oskar Dirlewanger was, by most accounts, an objectionable character but his personal courage and dedication to the cause in which he believed were beyond doubt. He was, however, prone to excessive behaviour and was censured for this on several occasions by Himmler's office.

Many young men with blots on their records ended up in his unit. To some extent, it was a 'rehabilitation' unit. Not all of the men who served there were hardened criminals and scum. I believe that quite a few youthful members of the unit captured by the Soviets were released home to Germany comparitively quickly because they were seen as 'anti-Nazi political cases'.

That said, I have yet to see proof that this was policy but I did know one case of a man who served under Dirlewanger - we have his papers - as a probationer - having been reprieved from a death sentence for 'treasonous' conduct - and he said that he was sent home by the Reds in 1948. He further said that senior NCOs were all shot immediately but that Germans in Russian uniform interviewed him and his mates and classified them as "politicals". Hence they weren't shot out of hand.

Now, there's something to be researched...

PK

[Troy Tempest]

To remind us that such people arise when the circumstances permit.

The nomdeplume is also due to my controversial nature

Okay Dirlewanger! Pesky troublemaking kiwis!

That's very true. Oskar Dirlewanger was, by most accounts, an objectionable character but his personal courage and dedication to the cause in which he believed were beyond doubt. He was, however, prone to excessive behaviour and was censured for this on several occasions by Himmler's office.

Fair enought Paddy, I always thought Himmler's awarding him of the Knights Cross besmirched the medal somewhat. What do you think?

Troy

[Dirlewanger]

Here a contribution to a thread on the worst SS Division

[quote="Helmut Von Moltke"]First of all, the Handschar was not such a bad unit, it was a competent anti partisan unit.]

"The same could be said of the Dirlewanger Brigade, while these methods of partisan and civil population control worked in the outback regions of Russia, where no outsiders were privy to the brutal methods used, When those same methods were applied in Warsaw in 1944 and viewed by survivors the truth came out.

While I am not in any way condoning Dirlewangers anti partisan methods, SS Gruppenfuhrer Reinfarth who nominated Dirlewanger for the Knights Cross for his Brigades actions in Warsaw 1944 and the overall commander of the action, SS Obergruppenfuhrer Erich von dem Bach, who were both well aware of Dirlewangers methods must be held equally culpable for the Wola incident etc, but due to both these high ranked war criminals usefulness to the Nuremberg investigators as witnesses neither of them were called to task for the operation they oversaw in Poland.

While definitely an extremely brutal crew, Dirlewangers bandits, The 36th Waffen Grenadier der SS was a division in name only, never at any time mustering to full division strength. They are more comparable to the Rona Brigade.

Seems rather ironic that Kamanski was executed for his and his Brigades actions at Warsaw, by the Germans, and Dirlewanger was awarded the Knights Cross." =unquote]






Of course looking at the 1944 Warsaw uprising from purely a German Military viewpoint, (and in no way denigrating the event) in modern parlance it would be an uprising in occupied territory by organised militant insurgents (or terrorists) that were breaking the law of the land and needed to be crushed.
I do not condone the methods used in this no quarter given battle, but believe some similarities can be drawn with Operation Phantom Fury in Fallujah as far as innocent civilians getting caught in the crossfire and illegal use of white phosphorus against enemy personnel and civilians by the U.S. Army. While we will probably never know the true number of innocents killed in this contemporary anti partisan operation it is widely considered that many did die.
Of course the 1944 Warsaw Uprising death toll was staggering numbers of Germans, Poles and civilians

Although you asked Paddy whether Dirlewanger besmirched the Ritterkruez by having it awarded to him. I don't think so, there were also other reprobates that were awarded that medal for carrying out their orders in a successful manner.
As Paddy pointed out Dirlewanger had a tendency to excess in the line of duty which drew some censure from Himmlers Headquarters, but which his masters used to their own advantage and provided him with powerful protection at high levels (Obergruppenfuhrer Erich Von Dem Bach and Obergruppenfuhrer Gottlieb Berger as two of them)
In my opinion being awarded to this particular man has no reflection on the integrity of the Ritterkruez

Hell, before he became a monster, Dr Joseph Mengele was awarded the Iron Cross first class for pulling two men from a burning tank while under enemy fire on the Russian Front, when he was a Medical Officer with Wiking, does the fact the he got awarded it besmirch that order?


_________________
Ost Ost Oskar

[Cott Tiger]

I do not condone the methods used in this no quarter given battle, but believe some similarities can be drawn with Operation Phantom Fury in Fallujah as far as innocent civilians getting caught in the crossfire and illegal use of white phosphorus against enemy personnel and civilians by the U.S. Army.

Are you serious?

To compare the actions of the Dirlewanger Brigade in the Warsaw uprising of 1944 with the conduct of the US troops in the battle of Fullujah is quite simply ludicrous. I would also suggest it is deeply insulting to the men of the US forces who took part in that operation.

I have seen this kind of codswallop peddled on anti-American and anti-Bush websites for a while now so perhaps it was only a matter of time before it was repeated here. It’s disappointing all the same though.

I too find it intriguing as to why you wish to name yourself after a convicted paedophile and sexual predator whose men committed some of the most savage and horrific war-crimes against civilian populations.

Regards,

Andre

[Dirlewanger]

I do not condone the methods used in this no quarter given battle, but believe some similarities can be drawn with Operation Phantom Fury in Fallujah as far as innocent civilians getting caught in the crossfire and illegal use of white phosphorus against enemy personnel and civilians by the U.S. Army.

Are you serious?

To compare the actions of the Dirlewanger Brigade in the Warsaw uprising of 1944 with the conduct of the US troops in the battle of Fullujah is quite simply ludicrous. I would also suggest it is deeply insulting to the men of the US forces who took part in that operation.

I have seen this kind of codswallop peddled on anti-American and anti-Bush websites for a while now so perhaps it was only a matter of time before it was repeated here. It’s disappointing all the same though.

I too find it intriguing as to why you wish to name yourself after a convicted paedophile and sexual predator whose men committed some of the most savage and horrific war-crimes against civilian populations.

Regards,

Andre

If you care to do your research, starting with the French McLean book you will find that Dirlewanger was cleared of those charges and convictions after a protracted legal procedure through the German court system.

If you also care to do some research you will also find that the American troops at Fallujah used what they referred to as "Shake and Bake" white phosphor mortar rounds which are illegal. This was admitted by the American High Command. White phosphor in the mortar form is a non selective incendiary cloud with a 300 metre radius that burns anything in that area.

"The United States Army has acknowledged using these bombs in the Iraq War in areas such as Fallujah.[20] On November 15, 2005, Dept. of Defense spokesman Lieutenant-Colonel Barry Venable confirmed to the BBC that WP had been used as an antipersonnel weapon in Fallujah:[21]

Yes, it was used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants. When you have enemy forces that are in covered positions that your high explosive artillery rounds are not having an impact on and you wish to get them out of those positions, one technique is to fire a white phosphorus round into the position because the combined effects of the fire and smoke - and in some case the terror brought about by the explosion on the ground - will drive them out of the holes so that you can kill them with high explosives.

—Lieutenant-Colonel Barry Venable, Dept. of Defense spokesman"

Another source, the Times. One of the most illustrious English news papers hardly an anti American anti Bush website

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... _1,00.html


I was not comparing Warsaw to Fallujah per see but said "but believe that SOME SIMILARITIES can be drawn" (to spell it out for you) regarding the lovely American euphemism "collateral damage" as regarding civilian killings during these two battles. I also made no direct reference to the Dirlewanger Brigade in the section you chose to quote so please don't put your words in my mouth.

While the Dirlewanger Brigade did commit serious atrocities at Warsaw in 1944 I don't think that they were totally responsible for the all the estimated hundred thousand of civilian causalities there. Some of that responsibility would have to be taken also by the other Waffen SS and Heer troops fighting house to house with flame thowers and Goliaths and the German Artillery troops manning the Morser Gerats that flattened a city block with one round. Then there was the Luftwaffes contribution.

As for the illegal Bush/Blair war on Iraq that is another story.

Cott Tiger (what ever that is?)you are obviously a very obtuse person as I have given a succinct answer to the Dirlewanger question posed by our Australian member

[sid guttridge]

Hi Guys,

White Phos is difficult to police because it can be legally carried for use as a target marker for other weapons, but not as a weapon itself. In these circumstances it requires enormous self restraint and self discipline for troops carrying White Phos for legitimate reasons not to use it for illegitimate reasons in the interest of their own protection.

I would suggest that US actions in Fallujah can legitimately be the subject of a comparison with any combat anywhere, including Warsaw, but the result of such a comparison could not reasonably equate the two battles.

The most obvious point of difference is that the US held back at Fallujah until most of the civilian population had fled. By contrast, the bulk of the civilian population at Warsaw was trapped by the fighting.

As a matter of interest, did the Germans ever offer to let Polish civilians the opportunity to evacuate the besieged areas of Warsaw en masse?

In some of their own besieged fortress ports in France in 1944-45 the Germans allowed the bulk of the French civilian population to leave in order to extend their own rations. Was this a factor at Warsaw at all?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Dirlewanger]

All good points Sid

here is an excerpt from a page on the Warsaw uprising on the historylearningsite.uk that mention that some civilians were given an opportunity to leave during a lull in operations

"Right into September, the Home Army based its hope on receiving help from the Red Army that was nearing the Vistula River. It never came and the Polish Red Cross , on September 7th, tried to negotiate a ceasefire. They were given a few hours grace during September 8th and 9th and several thousand children and elderly were allowed to leave the city. Many in the city simply did not want to go as on September 10th, the Red Army had defeated what remained of the German Army on the east bank of the Vistula. They were literally on the banks of the river in certain places - opposite the heart of the city.

However, on September 14th and 15th the Germans sent fresh troops to the city centre and consolidated their positions on the west bank of the Vistula. The XXV Panzer Division had been sent to the city to finally defeat the Home Army. Their approach to the Home Army was as before - total ruthlessness. If a building was thought to contain members of the Home Army, it was simply destroyed with whoever was in it. When house-to-house searches took place, flame throwers were used. Building by building, the city was retaken by the Germans - and massive damage was done to it."

[Rajin Cajun]

I would hardly call the Times pro-American and saying they are not anti-Bush is like saying Attila the Hun didn't ravage a good part of Europe.

[Dirlewanger]

But they are not supposed to be pro American Rajin they ARE supposed to be impartial And George is real hard to warm too anyway