Waffen-SS Elite Status Debate II

[Imad]

During a few years LSSAH, Das Reich, Totenkopf and Wiking were elite. I do not consider Hitlerjugend elite.

Timo, just out of curiosity, why do you compare HJ unfavourably with the first four divisions?

[Achilles]

and from whatever litttle that I have read of the Heer Panzer divisions and their performances.......I think the 2nd Panzer may have been the best division of the Panzerwaffe......................but the Waffen SS panzer formations were pitched more often than their Heer counterparts against crack opposition................in Russia they faced the bulk of the Guards tank corps (equipped with T-34 and above)....at Kharkov, Prokhrovka, Mius, Kirovograd. Kamlensky pocket, outside Warsaw, Hungary........and the best of Brits at Caen......was it just incidental that the Soviets and other Allies always put their best Tank units in front of these formations.............

Utter rubbish. The problem is you only know about these campaigns because of the involvement of the W-SS. What about those campaigns that were fought with little on no involvement of the SS? Say, for example, the Rzhev salient in 1942? That was some of the hardest fighting of the Eastern Front and yet there was barely an SS unit involved. Unsurprisingly until Glantz's book on the subject it was almost unknown in the English speaking world. For example, what do you know about the colossal battles fought by Army Group Centre through the autumn and winter of 1944? No W-SS involved so you've probably no idea. Similarly Kurland, Italy, Army Group North...the list goes on.

However taking into account the battles you mention:

Kharkov? What about 17., 6., 7., 11. Panzer that defeated the Soviet thrust over the Donets? These units had been in continuous combat since at least December 1942 (17. Pz for much longer). What about those units that destroyed the Soviet thrust to the Dnieper at the same time (4 Pz)? that was just an important

Prokhrovka? Just a another engagement in the Kursk operation...what about III Pz Korps thrust (6., 7., 19 Pz)? Or 11 Pz and GD, not to mention the fighting on the northern side of the salient. All as important as Prokhrovka.

Mius? What about 16 PzG and 23 Pz? The latter division, to quote 6th Army's Chief of Staff, 'The exhausted men of 23 Pz Division were the pacemakers of the attack' because he believed 'the SS divisions were poorly trained' (this is 2 SS and 3 SS during their 'elite' period) and this was 'even evident amongst most officers.' They were 'slow and hesitant in reacting and could not carry out orders with the proper celerity; the lack of co-ordination between weapons was particularly noticeable.' Hardly sounds 'elite' by anyone's standards.

Kirovograd? I assume you are thinking of 3 SS who joined the fight on 16th January when the fighting was already over. Apart from 2 FJ all units which stopped the thrust at Kirovgrad were Heer - 3., 11., 14. Pz, GD, 10. PzG and 376 ID. There was little or no W-SS involvement...perhaps their wartime and post war propaganda claimed the credit.

Kamenets-Podolsk? Again little W-SS involvement apart from small LSSAH and 2 SS KG's. The mobile fighting was carried out by 1, 20, 19, 16, 1, 11, 7 and 17 Panzer divisions with 1 Pz taking the lead due to the exhausted condition of the other divisions.

Warsaw? I'll think you'll find it was 19. Pz that was the major armoured unit in that city.

Hungary? As I'm not sure what part of that campign you are referring to (but I doubt it's the autumn 1944 due to the no involvement of the W-SS aprt from 4 SS).
Autumn 44 - 23, 1, 13, 24, FHH and later 6 and 3 Pz.
Budapest operation - 1, 23, 3, 6, 3, 8, 13 Pz. Apart from 3 SS and 5 SS the like of 1 SS, 12 SS didn't turn up until February...while the Heer divisions had done most of the fighting.

So even after taking the example YOU gave (known in the English speaking world as W-SS battles) we can see that they were no such thing. If I remember correctly in many W-SS fan books the relief of the Korsun pocket is often attrinuted to 1 SS...when in fact it was 1 Pz (Heer) aided by 16 Pz.

The W-SS had Nazi propaganda druing the war and this was continued after the war fuelled largely by English speaking authors no doubt attracted by stories from Normandy, Arnhem and the Ardennes of Hitler's 'elite'. I'm often reminded of the comment by Colonel Brandt in Cross of Iron...paraphrased - "there is nothing more despicable than trying to steal the laurels of others" - which is exactly what the W-SS publishing machine has done in the last 60 years.

My award for the Most Outstanding Performance by a German Panzer Division 1939 - 1945 goes to 3. Panzer Division.

Poland, France, major movers in the summer and autumn 1941- (Minsk, Smolensk, Kiev, Tula) fire brigade during the winter of 41-42, Kharkov (May 42), Caucasus, Donets, Kursk, Kharkov (August 43), Dneiper, Kirovgrad, Jassy, Baranov, Warsaw, Hungary.

Spent the entire period June 41 - May 1945 on the Eastern Front and was never withdrawn to the west for a major refit like most of the other divisions. However, when it comes to Western acknowledgement that is a handicap.

[TimoWr]

Because HJ performed very well in Normandy...but only in Normandy.

[Rajin Cajun]

Well they did kind of get massacred in Normandy.

[Marko]

Well, I think Achilles this is definitely the most outstanding post in this topic !

[TimoWr]

Well they did kind of get massacred in Normandy.

Yes, but that does not make them an elite. Or is this a "they were elite but they never got a chance to show it because they were decimated in Normandy" type of remark?

[TimoWr]

The W-SS had Nazi propaganda druing the war and this was continued after the war fuelled largely by English speaking authors no doubt attracted by stories from Normandy, Arnhem and the Ardennes of Hitler's 'elite'. I'm often reminded of the comment by Colonel Brandt in Cross of Iron...paraphrased - "there is nothing more despicable than trying to steal the laurels of others" - which is exactly what the W-SS publishing machine has done in the last 60 years.

Exactly! And this brings us back to the first page of part one of this topic...

Problem with the Waffen-SS elite status is a myth created by nazi propaganda during the war and perpetuated by post-war authors.

[Rajin Cajun]

I think its more they were elite in their fanaticism and they did defend to the last man in some areas. So they were "elite" for the Normandy combat but your logically not ever going to be of any use after it.

[dnl-panzerschreck]

Why can't we just stop this debate and stick to the conclusion by TimoWr in the previous thread? :

- Was the Waffen-SS an elite? NO
- Did the Waffen-SS have elite elements? YES, and so did the Heer

[Imad]

I think TimoWr's conclusion makes profound sense. It would be a mistake to classify the entire Waffen SS as an elite when you consider the presence of Dirlewanger's gangsters and third class units like 4th SS Polizei and 7th SS Prinz Eugen in their midst. Even 6th SS Nord performed shabbily in the initial stages of Barbarossa, although it seems to have somewhat redeemed itself in Nordwind. Some units performed outstandingly for a good portion of the war and might be classified as elite by themselves, but that could just as well apply to elite Heer units such as Grossdeutschland and PanzerLehr.
All the best

[dnl-panzerschreck]

Yes, just concluding that both the Waffen-SS and the Heer had elite units (and third class units) is, at least to my knowledge, in correspondence with the truth. Furthermore it saves us from getting exhausted discussing this matter of minor importance instead of discussing more useful topics.

But that is my opinion.

/Henrik

[dnl-panzerschreck]

Timo, just out of curiosity, why do you compare HJ unfavourably with the first four divisions?

Not to throw any more petrol on the fire, put here one has to differ between actual combat skills and fanatism. Even though a unit fights with great fanatism and great losses, and by this delaying an enemy advance with some hours, days or weeks, it does not make it an elite unit. The HJ members of 1943-44 were green 17 year-old fanatics. They fought hard and lost a great deal (60 %?) of their troops at Caen, but losses does not automatically make them elite.

/The same

[sid guttridge]

Hi Guys,

The 12th W-SS Division fought extremely well in Normandy.

However, this performance was maintained with diminishing returns for only about two months in a 70 month war. What is more it had taken a year to prepare the formation for combat using arguably the cream of German volunteer youth and some of the best equipment available.

Albert Speer in his memoirs felt that the concentration of so much high quality young manpower in a single formation was a mistake and compared its virtual annihilation with the "kindermord" of Ypres in 1914. On both occasions some of the best German youth was lost without useful return.

The Hitler Jugend Division does not look like a particularly good investment of valuable human resources despite its good showing in Normandy.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Reb]

Re Training

OF all the SS Divs the HJ probably came closest to having "better" training since it was trained by combat experienced SS and Heer NCOs and due to the fact That Witt had his own ideas about sport and live exercises.

As a second generation with high calibre human resources it gleaned valuable experience from the older men cadred into it. Also had the attention of Artur Axmman of the Youth Org.

Hubert Meyer's two volumes on the HJ are invaluable for study of this interesting outfit.

All said and done though, Sid is right. Like Pz Lehr, HJ went through top quality people at a dreadful rate. Similarly, neither seemed to shine subsequent to Normandy since the quality and numbers of officers and NCOs weren't there anymore and recruits came from whereever available.

My own feelings on elite status are that the whole concept must be time based. 'x' division performed as an elite in such and such a period. HJ was a moment in time - very good officers and NCOs with top notch human resources and adequet equipment (not as good as you might think) were able to perform as an elite for that moment in time that those conditions existed.

Causalties in teeth unit often exceeded 100% so a couple compaigns down the line you had a whole new formation with different and often inferior equipment. HJ would never see 3 or 400 SPWs again after Normandy and only had enough leadership cadre to field one pz bn.

As to fanaticism: may God grant that any enemy I face in battle be a fanatic! Much more dangerous when your enemy thinks with his head!
I note that partriotism is often mistaken for fanaticism - its interesting to read what the Japanese thought of US marines: "special assault units with no regard for human life - their own or anyone else's!"
Sound familiar?

cheers
Reb

[Imad]

Sure, no problem with that analysis Reb. I really wonder where the thin line between bravery and fanaticism starts though. You made a good point about using one's head but sometimes the difference is not that easy to discern.
Sorry to use such an anachronistic example but the Knights Templar were renowned for not giving up ground even for tactical reasons even if this meant annihilation, which it often did. How many writers are willing to call the Knights of the Temple fanatics, though?
As far as the HJ is concerned, to me the only manifestation of fanaticism in their behaviour lay in their proclivity to shoot Canadian PWs, (not to belilttle the heinous crime involved). Otherwise their combat performance was no different from that of their brave British and Canadian opponents. One could argue that their disproportionately high losses in Normandy is a point against them but I really don't see what choice they had except to offer stubborn resistance. An Allied victory in Goodwood would have spelt a deathknell for German resistance in France that much faster.