Waffen-SS Elite Status Debate

[Marko]

Because it wasn't an armoured formation?

Sorry, I seem to have missread your point.

Overall performance between 1939 and 1945. The invasion in France, the Balkan campaign, then all the way to Moscow, non-stop action in the East (Rzhev, Zitadelle and along the Dnjepr), even in 1944 and 1945, with the deepest penetration of the allied lines in the Ardennes (nearly to the Meuse River).

You've just described about half of all the Heer panzer divisions .

Personal preference after reading all those books.

and that's why I'm even more puzzled as I'm sure anyone else reading them (panzer divisional histories, that is) would say the same.

I realized over the years that it's virtually impossible to single out an idividual formation and classify it as the best of ..., not to mention the point in doing so. As for me I couldn't care less which's the best, just don't like your argumentation.

[TimoWr]

I see what went wrong. I ment to write: By all standards I think 2. Panzer-Division (Heer) was the best German armored formation of WW2, closely followed by several other Heeres divisions. That's what sometimes happens when replying to a flood of posts in topic such as this one.

Meanwhile I have stated several times in this topic that there was hardly any difference in performance between Waffen-SS and Heer, that both formations had a number of elite units but that neither the whole Waffen-SS nor the complete Heer were elite. Which seems to be exactly your opinion as well.

[kingtiger88]

and from whatever litttle that I have read of the Heer Panzer divisions and their performances.......I think the 2nd Panzer may have been the best division of the Panzerwaffe......................but the Waffen SS panzer formations were pitched more often than their Heer counterparts against crack opposition................in Russia they faced the bulk of the Guards tank corps (equipped with T-34 and above)....at Kharkov, Prokhrovka, Mius, Kirovograd. Kamlensky pocket, outside Warsaw, Hungary........and the best of Brits at Caen......was it just incidental that the Soviets and other Allies always put their best Tank units in front of these formations.......

But it is also obvious that at least after the big German rout at Falaise....even these old Waffen SS units could do very little against the rapid manpower loss which degraded the fighting punch..........in fact at this stage of the war there wouldn't be any German unit (Heer included).......wich wouldn't be facing the same issue..........

And as many of my esteemed friends have mentioned earlier that 'if' in place of the usual Waffen SS divs, there would have been Heer Pz divs...the result would have been the same........on the same lines...lets say instead of the 2nd Panzer's maximum penetration during the Bulge.....well, any of the Waffen SS formatons mayhave done that......therefore..the ifs and buts don't always justify the point......

[John W. Howard]

I split the thread and in the process three posts continuing this debate were left in the cold, so I will lock this thread; you may continue the debate on the Waffen-ss Elite Debate II. Best wishes.