Günter Grass: "Ich war Mitglied der Waffen-SS"

[wikinger59]

Günter Grass, author of "The Tin Drum" just announced that he had been a member of the Waffen SS. <So sei er als 17-Jähriger aus dem Reichsarbeitsdienst nach Dresden zur Waffen-SS einberufen worden und habe der zehnten SS-Panzerdivision "Frundsberg" angehört.>

http://www.aol.de/index.jsp?cid=460934155

[Paddy Keating]

It would be nice to imagine that Grass 'came out' because, living in a more enlightened society, peopled by freethinkers who understand what World War Two was really about, he finally felt no fear of persecution by the usual people and their handmaidens. But that is not the case. Europe and the United States are even more under the heel than ever. Just look at what is going on around us. Hopefully, Grass will sign up to the HIAG and perhaps even donate money from his considerable earnings over the years to help those of his former kameraden who have been paying dearly for their youthful idealism and patriotism. Or perhaps he just did it to get some advance publicity for his new book. I wonder if he can prove that he was in the Frundsberg.

[sid guttridge]

Hi pzrmeyer,

As the other Grass thread has been closed, let's continue here.

Firstly, let us regain a little perspective. You wrote "The fact that the Waffen-SS would include a @#% like Grass in its ranks forever shreds any argument of being a superior organisation."

Now I am not renowned as a great defender of the Waffen-SS's inflated reputation, but do you really think that what makes or breaks its reputation is not the numerous battlefield heroics or the more occasional massacre of civilians, but whether Gunter Grass was conscripted in the last months of its existence?

None of the criticisms you offer are of any great significance. In an ideal world Grass would have told the whole truth all along. But this isn't an ideal world. Furthermore, there is no suggestion that Grass did anything reprehensible while in the Waffen-SS and no suggestion that his post war writings are in any way invalidated. Indeed, given that his experience of Nazism now proves to be wider than previously thought, they might be seen as even more authoritative.

This does reflect somewhat on his personal character, but that is as far as it goes.

As I said before, this is something of a non-story. What is really interesting about it is not Grass's sin of omission, but the reaction of others to it.

The likes of you choose to spin it as discrediting a left winger. However, the likes of Torquez choose to spin it as discrediting a German right winger and intend to withdraw his honorary citizenship of Gdansk, his birth place.

We are learning even more about the prejudices of some posters on Feldgrau than we are about Grass!

Cheers,

Sid.

[phylo_roadking]

Why on earth would it discredit him as a leftwinger? Doesnt need a flash of light on the road to Damascus to change political views, not in someone who was only 18 when the world he knew changed utterly. I'd rather hear what CHANGED his views than what he was before.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

Lord Sid. the 2nd Grass topic is actually here.

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21385

We will fight it out there, instead of a research section.

K

[Paddy Keating]

Not wishing to be inflammatory but I would like to remind everyone that National Socialism is essentially left wing. German National Socialism was left wing until the Night of the Long Knives, when the Hitler Gang sold out to the moneybags and imposed a classic ultra-conservative dictatorship, disguised as a socialist government. Echoes of Blair and New Labour...

If we are going to discuss these matters, it would be good to get things right from the start. A young man like Grass would have seen the NS government as a good thing, despite its excesses, just as many young Americans see their current government as good for the country and the people, despite its excesses. Same applies to the Brits.

Grass was doing his duty as he saw it, just as Pope Benedict did his duty when he volunteered for the Hitler Youth and then the Anti-Aircraft Service. The point in all of this is the hypocritical persecution of former Waffen-SS soldiers in the postwar West Germany, by their own compatriots, the same compatriots who had escaped the fate of the Eastern brothers and sisters because of soldiers like Grass, holding back the Soviet hordes.

You have to look at these things in their perspective rather than yours. The postwar treatment of Waffen-SS veterans was shameful. It says a lot that Grass was brave enough to be a gunner in the Frundsberg but not brave enough to go into detail about his wartime service in the new, 'democratic' West Germany. This is more of an indictment of post-1945 'democracy' than of Gunter Grass. If his admission is aimed at selling more books, well, why not? Good luck to him. I am sure he never got a pension from the government.

But I do think he ought to join HIAG and donate money to help his less-fortunate kameraden.

PK

[Helmut Von Moltke]

excellent post Paddy. Ernst Roehm and the others before the Night of the Long Knieves were the left wing of national socialism. The National Socialist regime that went to war in 1939 was not really one. Iraq under Saddam and Argentina during the Cold War were classics of similar Roehm types though. It is not all black and white. Perhaps Grass knowing about the persecution of his comrades, just "rode the wave" as he did by trying to volunteer for the U Boat arm during WWII.

And about facts and veterans. Just remember Charles De Gaulle's saying "A nation's character is seen by how it treats it's veterans" or something of the sort. And as Sid said himself, "Facts need repeating hundreds of times, what matters is hearing them and not takin them on board!" or soemthing alike. Best Wishes.

K

[pzrmeyer2]

Hi pzrmeyer,

As the other Grass thread has been closed, let's continue here.

Firstly, let us regain a little perspective. You wrote "The fact that the Waffen-SS would include a @#% like Grass in its ranks forever shreds any argument of being a superior organisation."

Now I am not renowned as a great defender of the Waffen-SS's inflated reputation, but do you really think that what makes or breaks its reputation is not the numerous battlefield heroics or the more occasional massacre of civilians, but whether Gunter Grass was conscripted in the last months of its existence?

Obviously, in your concentration on "just the facts" sarcasm is lost.

None of the criticisms you offer are of any great significance. In an ideal world Grass would have told the whole truth all along. But this isn't an ideal world. Furthermore, there is no suggestion that Grass did anything reprehensible while in the Waffen-SS and no suggestion that his post war writings are in any way invalidated. Indeed, given that his experience of Nazism now proves to be wider than previously thought, they might be seen as even more authoritative.

Ha! typical leftist downplaying when one of their heroes is caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Again, I wonder what your reaction would be had it been a CDU politician. You remind me of the PC types here in the states who scream and shriek "racism!" every time a conservative states a truth about say, immigrants and crime, yet say nothing when a solid leftist is caught uttering the "N-gg-r" word.

And it would seem that many reputable folks feel his writings and position as some sort of "moral conscience" are invalidated by his hypocracy.

This does reflect somewhat on his personal character, but that is as far as it goes.

right, Sid, only somewhat.

As I said before, this is something of a non-story. What is really interesting about it is not Grass's sin of omission, but the reaction of others to it.

Right again, Sid, a non-story for a leftist like you who judges the morality and ethics of individuals not on their personal conduct but on which side they stand on on the issues. Hence, a leftist like Grass, despite his "sin of omission" is ok in your book because, at the end of the day, he is still a leftist. While, a personally honorable man, like say Peiper, will always be eeee-vil becuase he served the eee-vil reich enthusiastically.

The likes of you choose to spin it as discrediting a left winger. However, the likes of Torquez choose to spin it as discrediting a German right winger and intend to withdraw his honorary citizenship of Gdansk, his birth place.

"left" and "right" differ in the context in which they are applied. Torquez resistance to nazism could be portrayed as leftist if one were a nazi. As a Pole, however, his position is clearly on the right of Polish politics.

We are learning even more about the prejudices of some posters on Feldgrau than we are about Grass!

I think what is more revealing is the insights into your hypocracy on issues such as this one. Most eveyone else understands quite clearly the situation with Grass. Nealry all of the posts on these threads dedicated to this topic nail it on the head. (Exceptions of course for digressions into Polish-German relations, etc).

I'm "eagerly" awaiting your stubborn, dig-your-heels-in semantics response as you would never, ever consider that you are wrong on this one.

[phylo_roadking]

PK - youre not wrong...but strangely not right either. Certainly the whole "party" ideal was VERY similar....but all the other economic ideals weren't. Hitler's plans involved nothing along the lines of nationalisation or collectivisation of industry or production, in fact they WHOLLY supported these in the sense of respecting the individual ownership of property. What the first half of the last century DID bring was "communism" in the Old Hunter S. Thompson (LOL!) sense of..communal living. The similarities betweem Nazism, Communism and Italian fascism was that eventually all elites on society would subsume into the Party, which would be the central and only rulling and organisational body in society...but fascism and Nazism then drew the line at society and politics, and left industry and economics well alone. Even "Totalische Krieg" was nothing more than mobilising ALL industry for the war effort...but it was all paid for in money terms, by supplier contract - not national level economic planning. Mind you I doubt this difference was apparent to many at street level.

By a sea change I mean more - what seems to have turned him away from the MILITARISM of Nazi Germany.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

Phylo and PK, about Sid's view of dictatorships, on previous posts on Feldgrau he has stated that NS Germany and the Soviet Union were more similar to each other than the Western Allies, consdiering that they were both violent dictatorships and opposed to democracy. I'm not sure whether he is right, maybe someone could add in more detail...

good stuff, pzrmeyer2. To Sid, what makes him authoratative when he is just "riding out the storm" with the leftists during the hippy pinko periods lasting until now? And about pzrmeyer2's excellent point about PC hyprocrisy. I'm still wondering, if for example a Wehrmacht soldier commited a war crime and then turned leftist after the war, but said that he regretted his crimes, and only "following orders"? Would you view him as you view Grass? I know this is heavy politics, better to keep it civil considering Jason's forum rules posted earlier today, etc. Best Wishes.

Regards,

K.

[Jan-Hendrik]

Gentlemen,the real Grass-Thread is here :

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21329



Jan-Hendrik

[Helmut Von Moltke]

Jan, if you haven't noticed, there has been a sputtering of more than 3 Grass threads on Felddgrau

K

[Jan-Hendrik]

Thats why I posted a link to the real one , guaranteed Torqui-free

Jan-Hendrik

[Helmut Von Moltke]

aye, Jan. Now you gave the link, you know who will go there

K

[Jan-Hendrik]

Don't think he dares to troll around in a research section



Jan-Hendrik