September 19th 1944

[von_noobie]

Hello havnt been on for a while but i would like to expand my knowledge of the SS, In operation Market Garden the Germans managed to build up more than 500 SS troops around the Waal river bridge supported by artillary and armour, I would like any acounts of the battle and info of the units and equiprment that took place and any extra info you might have.

Best Regards
von_noobie

In regards to my post i classify total victory as destruction of atleast 2 airborne divisions.

[Doktor Krollspell]

Hello von Noobie!

Here's a good website (by Feldgrau member Scott/Revellations) for starters...

http://www.defendingarnhem.com


Regards,

Krollspell

[Alex Coles]

Ah yes! I remember that site.

[von_noobie]

Thanks Doktor Krollspell.

[Rajin Cajun]

I would consider the German Victory in Market Garden to be total in my view because the Allies didn't accomplish their objective which was to open a thoroughfare to Berlin. Since that was the only real objective to the Operation and the Germans stopped them from it and also kept most of the bridges out of their hands I would consider that quite a sound victory myself.

[von_noobie]

But and i know this for a fact (finally) the Germans suffered heavy casualties in the operation,

[Rajin Cajun]

Yes they did but I don't think at the time of conflict there was any real way around that. Unless the Luftwaffe magically regenerated and provided air supreriority again.

[Alex Coles]

You succeed if your enemy's objective fails, unless there was an objective you had.

[Scott Revell]

Well I guess this is a perfect post to give you some news. My website - Defending Arnhem has been updated with a wealth of information. It is completely different from the previous one (much more professional) with a heap of new information. http://www.defendingarnhem.com

Enjoy

Scott

[Helmut Von Moltke]

hello,

It could be considered a German victory considering that the British did not capture the Arnherm bridge, but not a total one, and in some ways a defeat, considering that some territory, for example Nimigen, etc, was lost to the Allies. I remember hearing somewhere that Montgomery even called 'Market Garden' a '90% sucess'.

Kevin

[phylo_roadking]

As Monty had to save his POLITICAL ass, how else was he going to describe it??? LMAO Any US general (Anzio, anyone?) that made a mistake like that would have been cammanding a desk in minutes. Remember that in the month preceeding this, the Germans had practically denuded Holland of forces....or retreated in disarray through it.

Also, check out the map; Holland without ALL river crossings is a poisoned chalice. If you can't pass through it at speed, youre faced with the prospect of whole areas chopped up and parcelled up into ready-made defensive zones by rivers and canals. Look at the efforts the British had to go to to clear out all the islands etc so as to not leave effective fighting forces in their rear. Which they wouldnt have been IF Monty hadnt concieved of Market Garden.

Holland wasn't a military objective on its own. But it COULD be a military disaster. Which the Germans proved by holding just ONE bridge.

[phylo_roadking]

And remember it was a total victory in ONE very important strategic sense; it forced/enabled the Americans to go head-on at the West Wall, and thus lengthen the war by six months.

If you were a general fighting a defensive campaign (and not the amateur AH) you'd realise that the high losses IN THEATRE were more than worth it to buy half a year.

phylo

[von_noobie]

Ok, It was a German victory but could they have done better, Taking the Arnhem bridge by the 18th, It could allow for upto 12 Panthers, 3 Tigers and a number of Pz III's and IV's to rush to the Son and Best bridges, Give the German Infantry enought time to wipe out the airbourne troops.

[Scott Revell]

Von Noobie,

Unfortunately you are misinformed reagrding your theory. Lets say the Germans had taken the bridge at Arnhem on the 18th then the "Armoured Force" you talk about would not have made it to Best/Son. There were a total of I think 7 bridges the Germans would have had to cross to get to Eindhoven. On top of that there was the 82nd and 101st Airborne units between them as well. So your theory would not have worked.

However lets say the Germans took the bridge on the 18th it means all of the 10th SS would have headed south to Nijmegen and it was a good chance that the Alllies would not have crossed the Waal. The 1st Airborne Division would have been completed captured and the Poles wouldn't have landed.

My thoughts anyway....

[von_noobie]

Fair enought point,

But the Son bridge was blown and the Best bridge did not fall into Allied hands until late on the 19th, By this time the 82nd was having major problems at the landing zones and very few units were spared for Nijmagen, While the grave bridge was defended by just the 504th which was spread out over a large area defending 3 other bridges and every thing in between, They would be unable do do anything to stop the armour except blow the bridge and that wasnt gonna happen.

The german armour could drive all through the night at about 8 miles an hour and most of the morning, Of course maximum luftwaffe support should be available along with all mobile Flak panzers. So assuming the advance went from 8 at night to 12 the next day (16 hours) the Germans could make the trip before the Best bridge was captured or the baily bridge at son built. Consentrate all attacks on 101st and detroy it the repeat processe to the 82nd then repeat process to 1st airborne.

3 airborne divisions gone and still holding Best and Son area.