SD Collar Insignia

mtmckeegan · Post by **mtmckeegan** » Sun May 28, 2006 10:43 pm

I just finished watching HBO's Conspiracy and am perplexed. While the ranks of the members of the Sicherheitsdienst are Schutzstaffel ranks and they appear to function in the SS structure, on the right collar is only a blank black tab rather than the SS runes. I have seen this in photographs as well. The SD appear to have a completely normal SS uniform, including the SS sleeve adler, with the exception of the runes. Can anyone explain?

Helmut Von Moltke · Post by **Helmut Von Moltke** » Mon May 29, 2006 6:37 am

yes, the SD don't have SS runes collar insignia, here is another example.

however the SD uniforms, they also have a special SD diamond insignia at the arm, and a blank white cufftitle. Hoever this would be diffrent in refrence to SD officers above the rank of Standatenfuehrer, as sbove that rank all SS had the rank collar insignia on both collars. For example Heydrich, head of the SD, with both collars. The pic also has details of the mentioned SD insignia. You can minimally see the other collar insignia, also the same.

Hope this helps,

cheers

Kevin. (p.s, uniforms and awards section?

)

awaygood · Post by **awaygood** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:47 am

Further to Kevin's answer, for definitive coverage of SD and Sicherheitspolizie uniforms and ranks, see Andrew Mollo's series, 'Uniforms and Insignia of the SS'; it's out of print, but you might be able to find it by doing an online search.
In addition to the point made by Kevin, as part of the Reichs Main Security Office, SD members wore police rank shoulder-straps (with police-green waffenfarbe on black underlay) or, as you can see from Heydrich's photograph, Algemeine-SS shoulder-straps; these were different from the Army-style shoulder-straps. (there was a period when Army-style shoulder-straps were worn; at Waffen-SS insistence, apparently, they were replaced by Police-style shoulder-straps, to further differentiate SIPO/KRIPO/SD/Gestapo members from 'military' formations which the Waffen-SS considered itself to be).
Additionally, the SD diamond, when outlined in silver cord, indicated membership of the Gestapo; to what extent this was actually followed is not obvious.
Only German Waffen-SS units, except for those allocated special insignia (e.g. Totenkopf), wore the SS runes. Prior to the war, the runes were only worn by the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, while SS runes, together with numerals and other symbols, were worn by the SS-VT regiments and signals and pioneer units.

awaygood · Post by **awaygood** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:53 am

Here's another question about 'Conspiracy', which I have posted on the Luftwaffe forum, but which has not been cleared up. Why, in an otherwise historically well-researched film, does Heydrich's Storch have swastikas, instead of the usual balkan crosses, on the upper surfaces of its wings??? On face-value, this appears to be such a glaring error, that it makes one wonder whether researchers found that his Storch really did have such unusal insignia! Further, if this is the case, why would it have such insignia? Does anyone have the answer?

awaygood · Post by **awaygood** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:55 am

Further to my earlier response, I should have mentioned that the police-style shoulder-strap rank system was introduced from January 1942; before that, Allgemeine-SS or, for a while, post the outbreak of the war, Army-style system was used. The photo of Heydrich shows him wearing the Allgemeine-SS shoulder straps (which indicated a rank group, rather than a rank itself).
Another point is that the SD arm badge was only worn by full members of the SS (when all the police sysems were absorbed by the SS, individuals who, themselves, were not in the SS wore SS uniforms).

Roger Griffiths · Post by **Roger Griffiths** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:57 pm

Very good question. I used to have the Mollo book on SD uniforms. Mollo brothers did not explain why some SIPO members had blank collar tabs where SS runes would be expected.

The thing to remember is that Gestapo was originally detectives (CID or Special Branch in British parlance), ie civil servants. SD was Nazi Party organization. Ernst Mueller, head of the Gestapo was a former Munich detective and thought that the SS were a load of plonkers.

About 1938, the RSHA was formed and Gestapo given honorary SS membership, unless individuals were members of SS under their own efforts. SD members were given honorary civil service status. Terms of service and pensions were merged.

I think I have seen pics. of Adolf Eichmann with blank collar tab, yet he was definitely SS.

I hope one of our correspondents knows the answer to all this.

Regards,

Roger

I would be interested to know the answer to this question.

Peter Hertel · Post by **Peter Hertel** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:35 pm

The SS-Sigrunen was designed specifically for use of the of SS-Political Readiness Squads cum SS-VT cum Waffen-SS and the LAH and were not for the use of the Allgemeine-SS or the SD/Sipo.

Best,

Peter

TH Albright · Post by **TH Albright** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:21 pm

You could also add the SS-Totenkopfverbande to that

Peter Hertel · Post by **Peter Hertel** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:55 pm

Afraid not Tom.

Only when the Totenkopf became part of the Waffen-SS were they allowed to wear the SS-Sigrunen collar patch.

Up to that point they were wearing the Death Heads collar patch and even after they were allowed to wear the SS-Runes a lot were still keeping their Totenkopf collar patch.

Check out "Uniforms of the SS - vlolume 4 SS-Totenkopfverbände 1933 - 1945" by Andrew Mollo.

Best,

Peter

awaygood · Post by **awaygood** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:31 am

Even after the SS-TV became part of the Waffen-SS, they continued to wear their totenkopf collar-patch insignia; I don't think Mollo suggests that the division ever adopted the sig rune collar patch.

The Totenkopf division aside, during wartime, only German Waffen-SS units were allowed to wear the sig-runes collar patch. Western-European and Eastern volunteer units were specifically not allowed to wear the sig runes -hence the variety of Waffen-SS divisional collar patch designs for Western volunteer units and 'Division der Waffen-SS' (Eastern volunteers).

German officers, NCOs, and other ranks (enlisted men) attached to non-German divisions wore their division's collar insignia, but were entitled to wear small sig-rune insignia on their left breast pocket (as were SS members of Polizie units).

So, the sig runes were only worn by German SS divisions (except for the Totenkopf division) during the war, and by the SS-VT (etc.) and Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, prior to the war. The Allgemeine-SS wore special insigina (a topic in itself) and members of the various SS main offices (including SD/SIPO) wore a blank collar patch.

Helmut Von Moltke · Post by **Helmut Von Moltke** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:30 am

hi awaygood,

I must disagree. Some foreign Waffen - SS volunteers, such as the Nordic ones in 5. SS Panzer Division 'Wiking', the Wallonians under Leon Degrelle, etc, wore the SS runes. Also some Eastern units like the Estonians and Ukranians wore the SS runes when in training, before their national collar tabs were delivered.

Kevin

awaygood · Post by **awaygood** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:02 am

Regulations weren't always adhered to, and frequently changed --leaving situations where practice lagged behind the regulations. So, of course, one cannot say that the sig runes were absolutely 'never' worn, except by German Waffen-SS units. But, none-the-less, the regulations specified that only German Waffen-SS divisions would wear sig rune collar patches and, in general, that seemed to have been the case.

panzermahn · Post by **panzermahn** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:13 am

Just to let you know that foreign auxilliaries of the SD wore different types of kragenspiegeln. For example, according to what I have known, the Slovenian SD foreign auxilliaries wore a blank spiegeln of blue collar. Yugoslavian volksdeustchen home-guard (i believed these were later incorporated to the SD) wore two horizontally elongated sig runes on their kragenspiegeln.

Estonian SD Einsetzkompanie men wore mini-totenkopf on both of their collar patches.

Regards
Panzermahn