17th S.S. Panzergrenadiers

[rock_of_the_marne]

Good day gentlemen.. AND ladies who are listening in..

I have been doing some research on the 17th S.S. PzGr.
I've learned ALOT but there are still some questions left to be
answered. (I do have the book about them on order btw..)

My questions are:

1.) WHat AFVs were assigned to the 17th at the start of D-Day?
I'm looking specifically those AFVs that were to be permanently
attached. I know they were supported by panzer divisions at times.

2.) WHat camoflage scheme did they use on the AFVs at the start of
D-Day?
Ambush Pattern? Was standard gray still being used or did they get the
(then) new Dunkel Gelb paint?

Can you all tell I'm a wargamer now?
Yes, my latest Flames of War army is the Germans and I want to base them on the 17th and yes, like so many maniacally twisted meticulous gamers out there I HAVE to be as histerically correct as possible.

Any help you guys could offer would greatly be appreciated and you might save an old man from his anxiety medicine.


Rock.

[Alex Coles]

Yes, i'm the 17th SS panzergrenadier

[rock_of_the_marne]

Yes, i'm the 17th SS panzergrenadier

And....?

[Alex Coles]

Well, in the battalion of the 17th SS division it consisted of tank destroyers like StuGIV/StuGIII's. I think they were attached for a while, until Operation Nordwind when they were given PzIV's. I haven't got the greatest second world war brain but you should go ask other people never mind me for precise answers for they can go down to soldiers and platoon level of divisions.

[Marko]

Hi Rock,

You'll find the answers teo your first question on this great website:

OoB: http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normand ... gerob.html or a direct link to 17.SS - http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normand ... pgdiv.html

Marko

[rock_of_the_marne]

To Marko and 17..

Thanks for the links and info guys..
What I'm wondering now is how many and what kinds of 1/2 tracks were issued to the 17th AND were they new (with Dunkel Gelb yellow) or transferred from an older unit (with the standard Feld Grau paint)?

I know, I know... I'm getting really detailed here..


Rock-E-Grateful

[Ron Klages]

Guys,

Here is an accounting from various sources of the armored assets of the 17.SS PGD from 1 June 1944 to 15 March 1945.

Enjoy,

best regards,
Ron Klages


********************************************
From a panzerlage dated 15 March 1945 the 17.SS reported the following status for armored vehicles:

Panzer IV
3 operational
1 in maintenance

StuG III and IV
25 operational
4 in maintenance

Panzerjäger 38T[Hetzer]
13 operational
6 in maintenance

***************************************

From a panzerlage dated 5 February 1945 the 17.SS reported the following status for armored vehicles:

Panzer IV
2 operational

StuG III and IV
39 operational
6 in maintenance

************************************************


From a panzerlage dated 30 December 1944 or 15 January 1945 the 17.SS reported the following status for armored vehicles:

SdKfz 251/7
2 operational
1 in maintenance

SdKfz 251/8
2 in transit to the division

all other 251 types
2 in transit to the division


SdKfz 250/5
2 in maintenance


Armor Car status
SdKfz 223
3 operational
2 in maintenance
SdKfz 222
1 operational and 1 in maintenance
SdKfz 232
3 in maintenance

Flakpanzer IV Whirbelwind
2 operational
8 in maintenance

Panzer IV L48
6 operational
21 in maintenance
10 in transit

Panzer IV L70
13 operational
4 in maintenance

Panzer V
15 Operational
24 in maintenance
26 in transit

Beflspanzer IV
1 in maintenance

Beobspanzer IV
4 operational
1 on maintenance

StuG III [dated 15 January 1945]
12 operational
29 in maintenance

StuG IV [dated 15 January 1945]
12 operational
18 in maintenance

Bergepanzer III
2 operational
1 in maintenance

Marder III
1 in maintenance

Jagdpanzer IV
1 in maintenance

***************************************

From Dugdales books

Status on 15 September 1944
5 StuG IIIIs in maintenance
3 Panzer IIIs operational
2 Panzer IIIs in maintenance
4 Jagdpz IVs operation and 10 in transit
1 Marder III operational and 2 in maintenance
9 Flakpz 38s operational and 3 in maintenance
3 SdKfz 251s operational and 1 in repair long term
2 SdKfz 232
4 SdKfz 222

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Status on 14 October 1944
1 StuG IIIs operational and 1 in maintenance
4 Panzer IIIs operational
2 Panzer IIIs in maintenance
2 Jagdpz IVs operation and 1 in maintenance and 10 in transit
1 Marder III operational
8 Flakpz 38s operational
1 SdKfz 251s operational and 2 in maintenance
6 SdKfz 7/1s
1 SdKfz 223
2 SdKfz 232
4 SdKfz 222

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Status on 4 November 1944
4 StuG IIIs operational and 1 in maintenance and 1 in long term repair
3 Panzer IIIs operational and 1 in maintenance
2 Panzer IIIs in maintenance
3 Jagdpz. IVs in maintenance and 10 in transit
1 Marder III in maintenance
6 Flakpz 38s operational and 2 in maintenance
3 SdKfz 251s operational [2 are 251/3s]
6 SdKfz 7/1s
1 SdKfz 223
2 SdKfz 232
4 SdKfz 222

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Status on 21 December 1944
16 StuG IIIs operational and 3 in maintenance 3 Panzer IIIs operational and 1 in maintenance
3 Panzer IIIs oprational
1 Jagdpz. IVs operational and 1 in maintenance 1 Marder III in maintenance
1 Marder III operational
4 Flakpz 38s operational and 2 in maintenance
3 SdKfz 251/7s operational
2 SdKfz 250/5s operational
7 SdKfz 7/1s
5 SdKfz 223
2 SdKfz 232
6 SdKfz 222


**************************************

From the book Normandy 1944 by Zetterling

On 1 June 1944 the division reported the following:

StuG IV with 42 on hand
Marder III with 7.62 gun with 3 on hand
Marder III with 7.5cm gun with 9 on hand
No SdKfz 250s or 251s on hand
Grille [15sm sIG auf Pz 38T] with 12 on hand

**************************************************

[derGespenst]

The grey (not Feldgrau) paint was not standard after 1941. Even old vehicles had been repainted long before 1944.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

Yes, i'm the 17th SS panzergrenadier

hi, isn't that "spam" then? Your forum name has very little to do with a research topic, other than the coincidence that your forum name is the same as the unit name.

The grey (not Feldgrau) paint was not standard after 1941. Even old vehicles had been repainted long before 1944.

What colour was it painted before 1941 then?

helmut[/quote]

[Martin Block]

Hello Ron,

I'm afraid I have a few remarks to make about your extensive listing of armor availabe to 17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div.:

1 June 1944: Grille [15sm sIG auf Pz 38T] with 12 on hand [N. Zetterling]

This is incorrect. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 37 and 38 were never authorised to have 'Grillen' and none were ever issued. Thus the divisional records actually do never show any, just 15 cm sIG 33 mot.Z.
Don't know were Zetterling found his data, but it does simply not match with the divisional records of 17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. and the delivery records of the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr.

15 September: 3+2 Pz. III
14 October 1944: 4+2 Pz. III
4 November 1944: 3+2 Pz. III
21 December 1944: 3+0 Pz. III [all J. Dugdale]

This is a complete mistery to me. Until Juli 1944 SS-Pz.Abt. 17 was lacking any Bef.Pz. and Bergepz.. The divisional records therefore do show only StuG IV and no other Panzer whatsoever.
Finally the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. shipped 3 Pz.Bef.Wg. IV as well as 2 Bergepz. III on 2 Aug 1944 and they were reported as arrived on 12 Aug respectively 15 Aug 1944.
And this is exactly what the first detailed divisional "Waffen und Geräte" listing after that shows on 15 September 1944: 3 Bef.Pz. IV with 7,5 cm L/48 and 2 Bergepz. III
All following divisional reports right through to March 1945 continue to show Pz.Bef.Wg. IV and Bergepz. III, never any Pz. III or Pz.Bef.Wg. III. Could it be that Mr. Dugdale mixed it up here?

The data given for the 17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. in the Gen.Qu. Pz.Lage dated 30.12.1944/15.1.1945 is for the most part a complete mistery to me. Divisional records of the same date do neither show any Pz.Beob.Wg. IV, Panthers, Panzer IV/70s with the division, and the actual number of Pz. IV and Flakpz. IV is much lower. The rest roughly matches the divisional records.
Since the Gen.Qu. Pz.Lage is a compilation based on reports sent in by all units using armor of any kind I can only guess this is one of the few mixups/transmission/transcription errors that usually happend during preparation of these files. I have noticed this in this particualar as well as several other Pz.Lagen compilations too when comparing them with actual divisional records. I use to call this the 'human factor' which in my estimation caused up to about 5% completely or at least partially wrong reports appearing in this sort of compilations.

The Pz.Lage as of 15 March 1945 you quote is another mistery to me. Divisional records as well as the copy of the Gen.Qu. Pz.Lage compilation 15 March 1945 I have show 3 Pz.Bef.Wg. IV, 2 Jagdpz. IV L/48, 4 Flakpz. IV, 6 Flakpz. 38 and 64 StuG III and IV. No Jagdpz. 38 are shown with the division, not even attached.


Sorry for the nit-picking but discrepancies with BA-MA and NARA records available to me were just to numerous to ignore them.

Martin Block

[Alex Coles]

Helmut, I don't know what your talking about because your a bloody spammer considering you have 600+ all over a few months

[Helmut Von Moltke]

Helmut, I don't know what your talking about because your a bloody spammer considering you have 600+ all over a few months

hi, I was just pointing out that you saying that you are the 17th SS Panzergrenadier on this thread bears no relevance to the topic. And, you are welcome to check some of my posts on a thread about "Germans have right to honour war heroes", and see if my long deatiled defence of German soldiers is spam.

helmut

[Alex Coles]

I suppose 640+ posts over a few months isn't spamming?

[Helmut Von Moltke]

I suppose 640+ posts over a few months isn't spamming?

no, as long as most of these are related to the subject of this forum, are relevant, intresting, etc.

helmut

[Alex Coles]

Well, here's something to chew on :

For example....

ah, damn I accidently pressed quote instead of edit

hi, does anyone know where to find a reasonable priced copy of Degrelle's book Campaign in Russia on the internet?

thanks.

hi, does anyone know where to find a reasonable priced copy of this book on the internet?

thanks.

In no consecutive order.

3.) Make mistake, fair enough but you post the right version instead of editing the post?! Also, you say you used quote instead of edit when you could of edited the first post thus making spam.

wow man, what a specific request... unfortunately I ain't no computer expert to help you

You didn't need to say this, just no need to post there if you have nothing constructive or helpful to say.

best to keep some skinhead idiot out of here

In this post, in the actual thread it's clear Feldgrau doesn't want pathetic members so this wasn't needed.

indeed

Jean Mabire migth od died (he's dead now) and the topic creater says wish him luck and all you say is that?! Don't you care at all?

? cannot really get what you are saying... next time, don't use caps lock that much, that is flaming

There was no point in saying this, if you realised the more mature members were ignoring you wouldn't post.

Hi Haen!

what were punishments for "plundering" haen?

helmut

No need to say this, HaEn admits he goes OT so why encourage it?

hi again haen

even though you said that you regretted you didn't go to any reunions, were there any reunions of Waffen SS veterans living in the USA? And no need to be sorry, after the war, as Degrelle said, SS men were scattered all over the globe...... just my 2 cents...

helmut

And once again, you post something which could of been edited into your post before.

I stop here, because i'm not interested in reading 33 more pages, having only read 11 out of 44