what were the best waffen ss features????

[Reb]

Tom

One reads of a very close relationship between officers, NCOs and men in the W-SS. Of course, one reads the same about the Heer with the exception of unamed units full of Prussian martinets who would have been worth doodly squat in combat - had they actually existed.

The disquieting thing for me is the point Michael Reynolds made in one of his books on the topic - one rarely hears SS vets complaining about the chickenshit and the sad sack officers - in contrast to US or Brit troops.

I've been studying up on the US Army at the organizational level and there is a lot of pro and con - both sides using the same arguments and quoting the same stats - its for another thread of course - but I must say, were I to have to serve in a WW2 unit it damn sure wouldn't be US Inf or Waffen SS. You simply were going to be a casualty - the only question was when and how bad.

cheers
Reb

[Helmut Von Moltke]

Hi Mw.....(Why do so many W-SS devotees have these ridiculously complicated and longwinded names?)

Firstly, the W-SS was not part of the German Army. It was subordinate to the Nazi Party. However, it drew all its manpower and weaponry from what would otherwise be the Army's pool and so was a drain on the Army. It also offered no original military specialities, copying those of the Army, as it did the fundamentals of its training, tactics etc.

Secondly, the Waffen-SS was a very mixed bag and in any direct comparison of all Army and all W-SS formations does not come out particularly well.

However, I presume you are talking about the Reich-raised W-SS divisions. The senior of these (not yet divisions) started the war with regular long service manpower and received mostly volunteers thereafter. The Army could not possibly do this for any signficant number of formations (only the Grossdeutschland) as, unlike the W-SS, it contained a genuine cross-section of the German population - young, old, fit, unfit, etc.. (That said, it still managed to win all Germany's major victories in WWII without any indispensable help from the W-SS!)

The Reich-raised W-SS divisions were also almost all fully mechanised from their foundation. The Army could only mechanise about 15% of its divisions.

Therefore the Reich-raised W-SS's main assets were that it was permitted by its political masters to cream off high quality volunteer manpower before the Army had access to it and it was all mechanised on Army vehicles.

There is no special mystique to the Reich-raised W-SS. Indeed, it is arguable that it added nothing to overall German military capability because every last man and rifle it possessed came from what would otherwise have been Germany Army assets.

Finally, it should not be forgotten that the W-SS was not only the beneficiary of wartime propaganda but is the continuing beneficiary of a continuous flood of new books today.

Perhaps the W-SS's greatest asset was (and is) just better PR?

Cheers,

Sid.

sigh Sid.... you always say that Waffen SS was not effective. Now, tell me what would happen if the 1.SS Panzerkorps wasn't at Caen in Normandy? The british would have streamed through, and Falaise pocket would have happened eariler! In the second post on this thread, some guy claimed that the Waffen SS was evil. Now, I'm afraid I have to use an argument which may resemble Sid's except in a diffent way. Most Waffen SS soldier, German or not, were like normal Wehrmacht landsers! Normal soldiers which did their duty! But don't take my post as skinhead neo nazi stuff bitte. just my 2 cents.....

helmut
helmut

[Christoph Awender]

Code: Select all

sigh Sid.... you always say that Waffen SS was not effective. Now, tell me what would happen if the 1.SS Panzerkorps wasn't at Caen in Normandy? The british would have streamed through, and Falaise pocket would have happened eariler!  In the second post on this thread, some guy claimed that the Waffen SS was evil. Now, I'm afraid I have to use an argument which may resemble Sid's except in a diffent way.  Most Waffen SS soldier, German or not, were like normal Wehrmacht landsers! Normal soldiers which did their duty! But don't take my post as skinhead neo nazi stuff bitte. just my 2 cents.....  

helmut 

Nobody said that the Waffen-SS was not effective! but as you said yourself (if it is in that point correct or not) that W-SS soldiers were like "normal Wehrmacht Landsers". And that is the point when it comes to the better, best, elite Waffen-SS nonsense. A Waffen-SS unit is not better or worse than any Heer comparable Heer unit.

\christoph

[Sani116]

Code: Select all

sigh Sid.... you always say that Waffen SS was not effective. Now, tell me what would happen if the 1.SS Panzerkorps wasn't at Caen in Normandy? The british would have streamed through, and Falaise pocket would have happened eariler!  In the second post on this thread, some guy claimed that the Waffen SS was evil. Now, I'm afraid I have to use an argument which may resemble Sid's except in a diffent way.  Most Waffen SS soldier, German or not, were like normal Wehrmacht landsers! Normal soldiers which did their duty! But don't take my post as skinhead neo nazi stuff bitte. just my 2 cents.....  

helmut 

Nobody said that the Waffen-SS was not effective! but as you said yourself (if it is in that point correct or not) that W-SS soldiers were like "normal Wehrmacht Landsers". And that is the point when it comes to the better, best, elite Waffen-SS nonsense. A Waffen-SS unit is not better or worse than any Heer comparable Heer unit.

\christoph

Hi Christoph

Surely that is abit of a broad brush in saying that Waffen-SS unit is no better or worse than any comparable Heer unit. In most armies you get the good the bad and the down right ugly units, there has to be a point where you say "X unit was more efficient than Y unit". And later as the war progressed, how many Waffen-SS units were inundated with old men etc? When units such as the 1st SS LAH and the 12thSS who were issued with gucci padded uniforms in the battle of the bulge, this was a sign of their considered elitness? Or status within the scheme of things?

I'm not so niave as to think that every Waffen SS division was top of the list for kit and equipment, but my point is that each country has "special" units which they deem to be elite, perhaps formations such as the LAH who were on all fronts except those in North Africa; put forward the reputation that the Waffen SS were the elite, because they bore Hitlers name and essentially dubbed "Hitlers firemen" (but then I am now disalusioned because a fare bit of my knowledge comes from books - books which could be wrong? )

Tom.

[TimoWr]

Not sure what "gucci padded uniforms" means but that same LAH did not have winter clothing during the Ardennes Offensive.

[Sani116]

Not sure what "gucci padded uniforms" means but that same LAH did not have winter clothing during the Ardennes Offensive.

Sorry I assumed that because the 12th got them, and being so close to the 1st in turms of kit issue etc, that both units recieved some of the Wintertarnwendejacke und (possibly) hosen during the offensive.

[2nd SS Panzer Das Reich]

were they braver?
was it purly dedication/ moral/ ideaology?

I don't think these two things alone makes a soldier better. Although braver and dedication go a long way I always say if they make a soldier better than others than the Japanese have the best of everyone. I don't think a lot of the Waffen SS was elite at the start (look at Totenkopf in France) but they really got much better over time.

[TimoWr]

Over time mainly alot of SS units were formed which were average or below standards.

[Christoph Awender]

Hi Christoph

Surely that is abit of a broad brush in saying that Waffen-SS unit is no better or worse than any comparable Heer unit. In most armies you get the good the bad and the down right ugly units, there has to be a point where you say "X unit was more efficient than Y unit". And later as the war progressed, how many Waffen-SS units were inundated with old men etc? When units such as the 1st SS LAH and the 12thSS who were issued with gucci padded uniforms in the battle of the bulge, this was a sign of their considered elitness? Or status within the scheme of things?

I'm not so niave as to think that every Waffen SS division was top of the list for kit and equipment, but my point is that each country has "special" units which they deem to be elite, perhaps formations such as the LAH who were on all fronts except those in North Africa; put forward the reputation that the Waffen SS were the elite, because they bore Hitlers name and essentially dubbed "Hitlers firemen" (but then I am now disalusioned because a fare bit of my knowledge comes from books - books which could be wrong? )

Tom.

Well, another of these Wafen-SS best discussion. hmmm

Beside the inaccuracry in your assumption pointed out by Timo already you have as many others a too narrow point of view. You judge by what single Waffen-SS divisions got and make your picture. You leave out to point out that many comparable (I call them workhorse divisions) Heer divisions were exclusively equipped as well. I just name a few from my mind -
1.Skijäger-division - Heavily overstrenght and motorized equipped division with newest systems including one of the first divisions testing the Stg.44, newest uniforms of all kinds.
Grossdeutschland - Overstrength special organisation. Newest uniforms of all kinds.
Pz.Lehr-Division - all regiments equipped with half tracks
4.Pz.Div. - Luchs recon tank which was just issued to Heer units. If they would just have been issued to W-SS units the Waffen-SS fans would give this as argument of the W-SS elite. So they usually neglect them.
78.Sturmdivision - Specially equipped, strong special organisation
etc.. etc..
I could go on which Heer units received these things which are always listed by Waffen-SS fans to point out their elite status.
Both branches had their workhorse divisions which were supplied with newest and best equipment to be capable of conduction operations.
It is just that many people pretend to be blind to see that.

\Christoph

[Sani116]

Hi Christoph

Surely that is abit of a broad brush in saying that Waffen-SS unit is no better or worse than any comparable Heer unit. In most armies you get the good the bad and the down right ugly units, there has to be a point where you say "X unit was more efficient than Y unit". And later as the war progressed, how many Waffen-SS units were inundated with old men etc? When units such as the 1st SS LAH and the 12thSS who were issued with gucci padded uniforms in the battle of the bulge, this was a sign of their considered elitness? Or status within the scheme of things?

I'm not so niave as to think that every Waffen SS division was top of the list for kit and equipment, but my point is that each country has "special" units which they deem to be elite, perhaps formations such as the LAH who were on all fronts except those in North Africa; put forward the reputation that the Waffen SS were the elite, because they bore Hitlers name and essentially dubbed "Hitlers firemen" (but then I am now disalusioned because a fare bit of my knowledge comes from books - books which could be wrong? )

Tom.

Well, another of these Wafen-SS best discussion. hmmm

Beside the inaccuracry in your assumption pointed out by Timo already you have as many others a too narrow point of view. You judge by what single Waffen-SS divisions got and make your picture. You leave out to point out that many comparable (I call them workhorse divisions) Heer divisions were exclusively equipped as well. I just name a few from my mind -
1.Skijäger-division - Heavily overstrenght and motorized equipped division with newest systems including one of the first divisions testing the Stg.44, newest uniforms of all kinds.
Grossdeutschland - Overstrength special organisation. Newest uniforms of all kinds.
Pz.Lehr-Division - all regiments equipped with half tracks
4.Pz.Div. - Luchs recon tank which was just issued to Heer units. If they would just have been issued to W-SS units the Waffen-SS fans would give this as argument of the W-SS elite. So they usually neglect them.
78.Sturmdivision - Specially equipped, strong special organisation
etc.. etc..
I could go on which Heer units received these things which are always listed by Waffen-SS fans to point out their elite status.
Both branches had their workhorse divisions which were supplied with newest and best equipment to be capable of conduction operations.
It is just that many people pretend to be blind to see that.

\Christoph

No no, you get me wrong Chris. I have not deliberately left out the very well equipt Heer units (I like the turn of frase btw "Work horse" - sums them up very well). My main point is that specific units carried forth the reputation of the Waffen SS, whilst being hyped up. I know that the kit issue is an old argument and cannot be used to totally back-up the reason why the SS are considered the elite. However I have met several Waffen SS veterans and a KM veteran who both told me of how the SS had priority over equipment, if they needed a replacment tunic they got it etc. Now again, I am fully aware that this is a localised source and does not represent the whole picture, but I can fully see where people get the notion that the SS was considered elite through their kit issue.

In my honest opinion, the waffen SS are considered elite because of their combat record and because the Nazi regime promoted them above the Heer, LW, KM...

[Christoph Awender]

Everyone got a replacement tunic if he needed one. This argument says nothing at all.
Egbert Hochhauser.. officer in Haussers Korpsstab and later Ib of a division also neglected a preference in supply. Doesn´t say that much but just to counter your veteran impressions.

As these discussions always showed in the past it is useless to discuss this topic as this Waffen-SS "best first nonsense" is so branded into the brains of some that it makes no use to argument against it.

\Christoph

[Sani116]

Everyone got a replacement tunic if he needed one. This argument says nothing at all.
Egbert Hochhauser.. officer in Haussers Korpsstab and later Ib of a division also neglected a preference in supply. Doesn´t say that much but just to counter your veteran impressions.

As these discussions always showed in the past it is useless to discuss this topic as this Waffen-SS "best first nonsense" is so branded into the brains of some that it makes no use to argument against it.

\Christoph

Are you saying this purely as advice or in reference to someone posting Chris? I'm not sure that you fully understand I am agreeing with you.

[Hans Weber]

The Waffen SS units were part of the Wehrmacht and closly interwoven with the German Army, most of the time serving under Army Corps control. It did not drain the Army, but added to it. It's the other side of the same coin.

In direct comparison the core Waffen SS units were as good as anything the Heer could offer. Highly motivated and with an attitude that they were better than the rest, their combat efficency is beyond any doubt. It's the reason the elite among the Waffen SS units still today attract most of the attention among people interested in WWII. Most of the people either condem them or glorify them. Both groups have mindsets normally found within extrem religious groups and are basically unable to engage in usefull discours. A few try a different approach.

Integral part of their success was the fact that beeing part of the political system, the successfull units among the Waffen SS usually had access to what they needed in men and weapons. This is not true for most of the non armored units also mostly formed from other ethnic backgrounds than Reichsdeutsche.

The early German victories were engineered by the German Panzer Force. The Waffen SS at this time were basically three unarmored regiments that later became the SS Panzer Division 1 to 3. The military significance of the Waffen SS rose when the war turned against the Germans. Beeing an Army inside the Army (as Grossdeutschland) their organisational independence and preferential treatement earmarked them as strategic reserve in the German war effort. The problem with their performance in the bigger picture is that they were fighting a lost war, although they fought it well. In the end it didn't matter at all if a rifle was in the hands of a Volksgrenadier or a Waffen SS soldier. However chances were that one of the two fought and the other tried to hinder him.


Cheers
Hans

[pzrmeyer2]

Christoph wrote:
As these discussions always showed in the past it is useless to discuss this topic as this Waffen-SS "best first nonsense" is so branded into the brains of some that it makes no use to argument against it.

Beside the inaccuracry in your assumption pointed out by Timo already you have as many others a too narrow point of view

Interesting and rarely discussed topic about an often forgotten aspect of the german warmachine.

Timo wrote:
Brilliant Christoph



And so, our brilliant, all-knowing, site-commissars slap down yet another novice who so predictably, yet foolishly thought the WSS were elite. Ha! Why everyone knows they were rabble compared to the 1136th Fortress Division! Yes, all the books and materials showing their high levels of elan, morale, combat effectiveness, and bravery in nearly every major battle in the war (I'm talking about the "core" 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 9th, 10th, 12th Div's)-all got it wrong! its all bullshit!

Really, guys, we all acknowledge your expertise (what great views of battle you offer from behind your research desks!), but the sneering condescention and ridicule of new members really reflects poorly on you.

How about analyzing "Max Wiedl's" questions? He wasn't denigrating any Heer units. He was just stating the obvious and asking why the WSS achieved "elite" status. I don't know him , but I'm sure he would include the GD and other similar Heer outfits as "elite" as well. Indeed, look how many amateurs include the GD as an SS unit? An unintended compliment, no?
As far as the suggestion that they diluted the army of talent, that is silly. Splitting up highly motivated and trained top soldiers and fettering them out to regular units wouldn't help anyone. Soldiers, like athletes, rise to the level of competition and the dynamics of the group. Sending an individual Ranger or para to a reserve unit wouldn't make a dent in a battle. Sending a battalion of Rangers could turn it. So it was with the WSS.

[Christoph Awender]

Hello Avenger of the badly treated and fighter against the evil site-commissars.

And so, our brilliant, all-knowing, site-commissars slap down yet another novice who so predictably, yet foolishly thought the WSS were elite. Ha! Why everyone knows they were rabble compared to the 1136th Fortress Division! Yes, all the books and materials showing their high levels of elan, morale, combat effectiveness, and bravery in nearly every major battle in the war (I'm talking about the "core" 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 9th, 10th, 12th Div's)-all got it wrong! its all bullshit!

You will not find a single sentence of me where I neglect that the Waffen-SS had effective and excellent combat formations. The point is that they were not better than a comparable Heer formation. Additionally I do not understand how someone can seriously believe that a Waffen-SS tank crew on duty since mid 1943 should be "better" than a Heer tank-crew constantly in combat since September 1939? Maybe someone could explain that to me.

Bravery in battle has nothing to do with effective or "better". Brave soldiers die. Effective soldiers inflict as many casualties while suffering as few casualties as possible. Not always one of the stong points of the Waffen-SS.
Regarding the books it always depends what kind of books you prefer. Reality or wishfull thinking books.

Really, guys, we all acknowledge your expertise (what great views of battle you offer from behind your research desks!), but the sneering condescention and ridicule of new members really reflects poorly on you.

Obviously you are a battle hardened veteran and think this does matter when it comes to military history. Let me tell you something - it does not matter because honestly I think that I know more about the German armed forces than any veteran I had contact with. The battlefields on the highways and dead humans I see in my job are enough view of battle. For military history it is irrelevant.

How about analyzing "Max Wiedl's" questions? He wasn't denigrating any Heer units. He was just stating the obvious and asking why the WSS achieved "elite" status. I don't know him , but I'm sure he would include the GD and other similar Heer outfits as "elite" as well. Indeed, look how many amateurs include the GD as an SS unit? An unintended compliment, no?

Many of his questions can be answered using common sense and this is what I showed in a provocative way. I am not here to be anybodies darling. I don´t care how many people like my answers or not. I say what I think and I think that these kind of discussions are mostly influenced by Propaganda.

As far as the suggestion that they diluted the army of talent, that is silly. Splitting up highly motivated and trained top soldiers and fettering them out to regular units wouldn't help anyone. Soldiers, like athletes, rise to the level of competition and the dynamics of the group. Sending an individual Ranger or para to a reserve unit wouldn't make a dent in a battle. Sending a battalion of Rangers could turn it. So it was with the WSS.

Waffen-SS were regular units. They had also K98, MG42, Pz.IV, Pz.V, handgrenades etc.. Like any other regular unit in the german army. They had nothing exclusively nor special. Organisational specialties were also seen with Heer units so that was again nothing exclusive.

\Christoph

PS. And not everything including my answers to the original thread should always be taken so very seriously.