Enlistment in Early War Waffen-SS/SS-VT

Freiritter · Post by **Freiritter** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:40 am

Hello,

I read in Rudi's bio and in other places that the Waffen-SS recruited alongside Wehrmacht recruiters in the Wehrkreise during 1942 all the way to 1945. In the early days, say from 1936 to 1941, how did one enlist in the Waffen-SS/SS-VT? Did a recruit have to join the Allegemeine SS and then volunteer for duty in the Leibstandarte and the early SS-VT regiments like Germania and Deutschland?

Cordially,

Freiritter

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:59 am

He just had to fill out a form and send it to the next replacement authority of the SS. They did a lot of advertising in schools, villages, festivals etc..

corderex · Post by **corderex** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:33 pm

Then of course the volunteer had to pass a very thorough medical examination and a racial inspection, “where the skull was measured, the distance between the eyes checked, length and width of the nose, the shape and size of the ears…”* among other, er, very scientific tests.

* (Walter Schimke, Errinerungen an meine Dienstzeit in der Waffen SS. Cited in James Lucas’s Das Reich. The Military Role of 2nd SS Division.)

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:14 pm

corderex wrote:Then of course the volunteer had to pass a very thorough medical examination and a racial inspection, “where the skull was measured, the distance between the eyes checked, length and width of the nose, the shape and size of the ears…”* among other, er, very scientific tests.

* (Walter Schimke, Errinerungen an meine Dienstzeit in der Waffen SS. Cited in James Lucas’s Das Reich. The Military Role of 2nd SS Division.)

But this procedure was not standard at all!!! Either in his memory he mixed this up with a racial test (for "scientific" purpose etc..) or he was "tested" because of special circumstances. None of the documents I have, none of the veterans I know can remember such a test as "acceptance" test for a Waffen-SS unit!! If this would be a factor not more than a little number of volunteers would have passed it. So please take this memoir with a grain of salt.

\Christoph

corderex · Post by **corderex** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:36 pm

It appears that Mr. Lucas (who makes no attempt to hide his great admiration for everything Waffen SS) did not take it with a grain of salt.
He also seems to have interviewed many former members of the Waffen SS and read many diaries.
Strange thing that, since it was not standard procedure, he should have decided to include this very account in his book. Perhaps he is just a sloppy historian (I am inclined to believe so.)

Either in his memory he mixed this up with a racial test (for "scientific" purpose etc..) or he was "tested" because of special circumstances

I wonder what special circumstances would have prompted the medical examiners to measure Mr. Schimke's skull and ears before letting him in.

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:34 pm

Well corderex I see the sarcasm in your post and I just want you to use a little bit common sense. Not everything written in published books is correct and we see mistakes and errors nearly every day we read books. If this skull, eye etc...measurement system was used to sort out recruits as a standard how much of the several hundred thousands of W-SS recruits would have passed this test do you think??? We all know how narrow bordered these racial requirements were and these were just fullfilled by a very low percentage of European people.

I wonder what special circumstances would have prompted the medical examiners to measure Mr. Schimke's skull and ears before letting him in.

As I said maybe it was not a examination to let him in but some sort of propaganda display exam, test exam to find out how many would meet the requirements, tries to see how this system works in reality/under normal circumstances, just a temporary test in this certain unit etc.. etc..

When you say this was standard procedure and this is proofed by this one account I can immediately hold several signed interviews/bios including these of my grandfathers and their brothers against it which did not pass such a exam and also wouldn´t have passed it when you look at them when they were young (all of them are W-SS veterans).
\Christoph

Freiritter · Post by **Freiritter** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:36 am

Hello,

Hmmm, interesting. Aside from the height requirements, what were the requirements each recruit was to meet in order to pass? If remember right, the requirements included a clean criminal record and a Germanic ancestry from the 19th century for enlisted men and from 1750 for officers. Perhaps it is better to ask what the requirements were to join the Allegemeine-SS first, then the Waffen-SS requirements.

Cordially,

Freiritter

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:07 am

Freiritter wrote:Hello,

Hmmm, interesting. Aside from the height requirements, what were the requirements each recruit was to meet in order to pass? If remember right, the requirements included a clean criminal record and a Germanic ancestry from the 19th century for enlisted men and from 1750 for officers. Perhaps it is better to ask what the requirements were to join the Allegemeine-SS first, then the Waffen-SS requirements.

Cordially,

Freiritter

Hello

I don´t know the requirements for the Allg.SS but they have nothing to do with these of the W-SS.
Because of the requirements for the W-S I posted the above documents but as you don´t seem to understand them I will list them here again (for 1938!):

a) German citizen
b) worth serving, morally, intellectual, physically, racial faultless and national socialistic
c) Germanic ancestry back to 1800
d) not married and not engaged
e) finished his labour service
f) permission of parents if under 18
g) Finished apprenticeship or bring a permission of the "teacher"
h) Finished necessary tooth correction before service
i) normal eyesight (no glasses)
k) clean criminal record

These were the requirement in 1938.. not more not less.

\Christoph

corderex · Post by **corderex** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:06 pm

Hello Cristoph

Well corderex I see the sarcasm in your post and I just want you to use a little bit common sense. Not everything written in published books is correct and we see mistakes and errors nearly every day we read books

1. We should not take this discussions to a personal level.
2. Sometimes it seems you are so bent on patronizing people who do not happen to agree with your opinions.
3. You are not the only person here whose relatives fought in World War Two.
4. I will follow your advice regarding Mr. Lucas' book (anyway, as I said before, he seems to be a sloppy historian, and his book is terrible.)
5. Perhaps, and with all due respect, you should take your sworn interviews with a healthy dose of skepticism. No sarcam intended here.
6. I hope we can continue to discuss on this and every other matter in a constructive manner.

Best regards,
corderex

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:59 pm

1) Sorry not possible for me when someone is saying I am telling wrong things when I have them black on white in front of me. When someone wants to proof something come up with evidence. There is no documentation for something that didn´t happen so the other one has to proof it if he can before accusing me of telling lies. If you show me evidence that it was a standard requirement for W-SS recruits than I will be more than willing to learn that it is true and I was wrong.

2) Not if he disagrees with my oppinion but if he disagrees with things that I know based on facts and evidence from original sources like documents etc.. Skull measurement etc.. was not a standard entry requirement for the Waffen-SS.

3) Did I say that I am the only one? Hard not to get personal when confronted with such remarks.

4) Should be done with any author

5) How do you know that I do not?? But why should I be sceptical when they say they didn´t have to pass such a test.

6) If you would come up with proof like a medical document, a document where it says that this was a requirement etc.. we can go on discussing. Constantly doubting what someone says without bringing evidence to proof him wrong does not add to the atmosphere corderex.

\Christoph

corderex · Post by **corderex** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:55 pm

Sorry not possible for me when someone is saying I am telling wrong things when I have them black on white in front of me

Constantly doubting what someone says without bringing evidence to proof him wrong does not add to the atmosphere corderex

Then again, Cristoph, I never said you were telling wrong things. It was you who discredited Mr. Schimke's account in the first place.
Since you are the one putting in doubt the accuracy of Mr. Schimke's testimony, perhaps it is up to you to bring evidence to proof him wrong. Only then may we take it with a grain of salt.
Fair enough? Ok. Enough of this useless discussion.

regards,
corderex

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:10 pm

I did not say that he didn´t say the truth and I don´doubt that he was measured for some reason but to bring his statement into context with standard requirements is not correct!! As I said maybe it was a special occurance or some other cause which I don´t know but saying that he describes the standard procedure to be let into the Waffen-SS is wrong!

...perhaps it is up to you to bring evidence to proof him wrong.

Don´t be ridiculous! You think there is a document or something similar which says "Skull measurement was not a standard admittance test for the Waffen-SS"??? I explain it again. I can just proof what the requirements were (e.g. with the above document) and you seriously ask that I show you proof for something that was not there? Sorry but you must understand that this is not possible. The only proof I can give you are interviews with veterans, other personal accounts and the fact that the W-SS consisted of hundred thousands of soldiers from all over Europe which didn´t for sure all meet these "measurement" criterias.

\Christoph

PS: If you find the discussion useless then don ´t start it when you have nothing to proof me wrong! Again instead of asking me to proof something that didn´t exist show me your backup or don ´t starta discussion when you then leave without adding something.

Freiritter · Post by **Freiritter** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:42 am

Hello,

Okay, I was wrong on the requirements. I'm sorry, I should've taken a bit a time to read it, but many of the words I don't know. So, if I have read it right, a recruit had to list his time in service in the RAD, HJ and the Wehrmacht among others. Could a recruit at this time join the SS Verfugungstruppe straight from civilian life without any time served in the Allegemeine SS?

Cordially,

Freiritter

Laurent Daniel · Post by **Laurent Daniel** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:59 am

The recruitment conditions of the Waffen SS followed simply the path of the war.
Early days: Only tall, blond, blue eyed, etc... typical Aryans.
Then, the Eastern Front toll being what it was, the "conditions" went down down down.
For the record:
- There were quite a number of Alsacians in the 2.Pz.SS Division that went through Tulle and Oradour before reaching the Normandy beaches battle.
- I have in my possession the Soldbuch of a Kriegsmarine soldier who "joined" the Waffen SS in September 1944. He was 1.62 metre tall and had grey eyes, black hear and, from his photo in the Soldbuch, I can tell you that he was looking a bit Italian, or Spanish style.

Laurent Daniel · Post by **Laurent Daniel** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:02 am

Laurent Daniel wrote: He was 1.62 metre tall and had grey eyes, black hear

Arrghhh, me franch me anglish no goud

He had black hair.....
Only the devil has black hear