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I think the discussion about "better" has nothing to do with serious historical discussion. This is something for computer game historians and toy tank playing kids.Are there better army panzer divisions late war then the premier classic SS?
claims are that cannot be proofed without the files of the enemy. Claims are often totally exagerated because a tanker cannot not determine if the claimed tank is really out of action for longer, total or just for a few minutes.I've heard that 2nd ss das reich had 4800 confirmed tank kills. Was this surpassed by any other formation?
From 28.June 1942 to 11.March 1943 the division claimed 1000 enemy tanks while losing 50 total writeoffs.liuanru wrote:What was 11th panzer's claims?
Some books actually say the the W-ss had harder training. However, some don't.
i think das reich had 8000 claimed.
8000 is claimed by member of the division, 4800 were proven, supposidlyAbteilung wrote:Yes, by the 2nd SS das reich, a division that seems to double its kills at an interesting speed:liuanru wrote:I've heard that 2nd ss das reich had 4800 confirmed tank kills. Was this surpassed by any other formation?liuanru wrote:i think das reich had 8000 claimed.
And what does that have to do with the fact that 11.Pz.Div. claimed 1000 tanks between the two dates I gave above??liuanru wrote:8000 is claimed by member of the division, 4800 were proven, supposidlyAbteilung wrote:Yes, by the 2nd SS das reich, a division that seems to double its kills at an interesting speed:liuanru wrote:I've heard that 2nd ss das reich had 4800 confirmed tank kills. Was this surpassed by any other formation?liuanru wrote:i think das reich had 8000 claimed.
I also don´know. I just interviewed former soldiers but looking at contemporary newspapers, magazines, newsreels etc.. the Waffen-SS is always put into the light.I don't really know to what extent the civilian population at the time did consider the Waffen SS divisions as the best units in the Armed Forces. Perhaps Cristoph could help us on that one.
Wittman was also a Propaganda star made for the purpose of giving the people a hero. If you look at the numbers you will see that the Heer did have a good share of aces too. But not that many know them.Then of course you have the case of SS-Hauptsturmführer Michael Wittmann, the most successful "Tiger-ace" of the war. People like Peiper and Wittman did a lot to help foster the legend that the Waffen SS panzer divisions were "special".
Of these 61 soldiers 45 are members of Heer units plus the 3 top listed.1.Kurt Knispel –168 Kills (sPzAbt. 503)
2.Otto Carius – 150+ Kills (sPzAbt. 502)–Tiger I--Knight's Cross 5/4/44, Oak Leaves 7/27/44.
3.Johannes (Hans) Bolter-- 139 Kills (possibly 144) (sPzAbt. 502) Tigers– Knight's Cross 4/16/44, Oak Leaves 9/10/44.
4.Michael Wittman – 138 Kills (sS.S.PzAbt. 101 Liebstandarte)–Tiger I–Knight's Cross 1/14/44, Oak Leaves 1/14/44 with Swords, 6/25/44.
5.Hans Sandrock – 123 Kills (assorted AFV last unit HJ )
6.Paul Egger – 113 Kills (s SS Pz. Abt. 102)–Tigers– Knight's cross 4/28/45
7.Fritz Lang– 113 Kills (StuG. Abt. 232)
8.Arno Giesen – 111 Kills (Das Reich)
9.Oberfahnrich Rondorf—106 kills (sPzAbt. 503)–Tigers
10.Feldwebel Gärtner - 103 Kills (sPzAbt. 503)–Tigers
11.Karl Koener – 100+ Kills (sS.S.PzAbt. 503)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 4/29/44.
12.Albert Kerscher – 100+ Kills (sPzAbt. 502)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 10/23/44.
13.Balthazar (Bobby) Woll–100+ Kills, 81 as Gunner (sSS Pz. Abt. 101)–Knight's Cross–1/16/44.
14.Helmut Wendorff—84 Kills (sS.S.Pz Abt.101)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 2/12/44.
15.Ernst Barkmann—82+ Kills (Das Reich)—Panther–Knight's Cross 8/27/44.
16.Eric Litztke—76 Kills (sPzAbt. 509)--Tigers– Knight's Cross 10/20/44
17.Hermann Bix – 75+ Kills (4th Panzer Division)–Knight's Cross 3/22/45.
18.Hans Strippel – 70 Kills (4. / II/ PzAbt. 1, 1st Pz. Division)–Pz. IV–Knight's Cross 6/4/44.
19.Emil Seibold – 69 Kills (Das Reich)–Pz IV+ Captured T-34s
20.Wilhelm Knauth—68 Kills (sPzAbt. 505)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 11/14/43.
21.Hugo Primozic– 68 Kills (StuG Abt. 667)–Knight's Cross 9/25/42, Oak Leaves 1/25/43.
22.Karl Bromann – 66 Kills (sS.S.PzAbt. 503)–Tigers.
23.Josef William (Sepp) Brandner – 61 Kills (StuG Brigade 912)–Knight's Cross 1/17/45, Oak Leaves 4/30/45.
24.Hans-Bobo von Rohr – 58 Kills (25 Pz. Abt., 7th Pz. Division)–Knight's Cross 11/15/44, Oak leaves 4/8/45 (Posthumously).
25.Karl Heinz Warmbrunn-- 57 Kills, 44 as gunner (s SS Pz. Abt. 101)–Tigers
26.Albert Ernst–55 Kills–(s.Pz. Jgr. Abt. 519)--Nashorn–Knight's Cross–2/7/44.
27.Richard Engelmann—54 Kills (StuG Abt. 912)–Knight's Cross 7/22/44.
28.Heinz Kling–51 Kills (s SS Pz. Abt. 101)--Tigers.
29.Johann Muller–50 Kills ((sPz. Abt. 502)--Tigers–Knight's Cross 10/23/44.
30.Josef Dallmeier—50 Kills (Fhr. PzJager Kp.1183)–Hetzer–Knight's Cross 4/3/45(?).
31.Walter Feibig—50+ Kills (StuG Brigade 301)
32.Heinz Kramer – 50+ Kills (sPzAbt. 502)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 10/6/44.
33.Alfredo Carpaneto – 50+ Kills (sPzAbt. 502)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 3/28/45.
34.Oberleutnant Mausberg – 50+ Kills (s.Pz. Abt. 505)–Tigers.
35.Wolfgang Hans Heimer Paul von Bostell–48 Kills–( Pz. Jgr. Kp. 1023, Pz. Jgr. Abt. 205)–Knight's Cross 9/2/44, Oak Leaves 4/30/45.
36.Jurgen Brandt—47 Kills (sS.S.Abt. 101)–Tigers.
37.Heinz Deutsch – 44 Kills (Fsch. StuG Brigade 12) Knight's Cross 4/28/45.
38.Fritz Amling—42+ Kills (in 48 Hrs. with StuG Brigade 202) Knight's Cross 12/5/42.
39.Heinz Scharf—40+ Kills (StuG Brigade 202) Knight's Cross 9/5/44.
40.Walter Oberloskamp – 40+ Kills (StuG Brigade 667) Knight's Cross 5/15/43.
41.Fredrich Tadje—39 Kills (StuG Abt. 190) Knight's Cross 10/24/42.
42.Rudolf Roy—36 Kills (12 S.S. PanzerJager Abt. HJ)–JP IV–Knight's Cross 10/16/44.
43.Gottwald Stier—30+ Kills (StuG Brigade 667) Knight's Cross (date unknown).
44.Josef Trager – 30+ Kills (StuG Brigade 667) Knight's Cross (date unknown).
45.Richard Schram—30 Kills (StuG Brigade 202) Knight's Cross 12/12/42.
46.Karl Pfreundtner—30 Kills (StuG Abt. 244) Knight's Cross 9/18/42.
47.Karl Heinrich Banze – 24 Kills (13 on one day StuG Abt. 244) Knight's Cross 5/27/42.
48.Felix Adamowitsch –23 Kills (in an 8 day period, StuG Abt. 244) Knight's Cross 10/20/44.
49.Eugen Metzger—23 Kills (StuG Abt. 203) Knight's Cross 9/29/41.
50.Hauptmann Rade –23 Kills (StuG Abt. 244)
51.Heinrich Teriete – 22 Kills (in one engagement, sPzJgAbt. 653) Knight's Cross 7/22/43.
52.Franz Staudegger—22+ Kills (sS.S.Pz Abt. 101) Knight's Cross 7/10/43.
53.Franz Kretshmer – 21 Kills (sPzJgAbt. 653) Knight's Cross 12/17/43
54.Horst Naumann—21 Kills (StuG Abt. 184) Knight's Cross 1/4/43
55.Klaus Wagner – 18 Kills (in two days, StuG Abt. 667)
56.Hermann Feldheim—16 Kills (sPzJgAbt. 654)
57.Heinrich Engel –15 Kills (StuG Abt. 259) Knight's Cross 11/7/43
58. Rudolf von Ribbentrop– 14 Kills (LSSAH+ HJ) Knight's Cross 7/20/43.
59. Wachtmeister Moj–12 Kills (StuG Abt. 190)
60. Siegfried Freyer– 11 Kills in one engagement (Pz. Abt. 24) Knight's Cross 7/23/43.
61. Alfred Reginitor–10 Kills (StuG Abt. 279) Knight's Cross (date unknown).