Out of the classic waffen ss divisions, what are the differences b/w panzergrenadier training for an SS vs an army panzergrenadier? Did they perform equally?
differences between training for SS Panzer crew and Army Panzer crew?
Quite a few army tiger battalions seem to have better performance then SS tiger battalions. I wonder is this true for the Panzer regiment also?
Is the performance of the SS overhyped by writers?
Were they just highly motivated men with nice uniforms?
Are there better army panzer divisions late war then the premier classic SS?
I've heard that 2nd ss das reich had 4800 confirmed tank kills. Was this surpassed by any other formation?
Waffen ss Panzergrenadier and Panzers vs Wermarcht
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Christoph Awender
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Hello
The training for Heer and Waffen-SS was the same although many people keep continuing the myth that the W-SS training was better, harder etc...
MAny people keep saying that W-SS units performed better and when challenged by me (this topic comes up frequently) nobody has been able to provide hard facts. It is all just hearsay and from my experience and research the first line Heer formations e.g. 1., 2., 3., 4.Pz., GD had the same professional performance like any W-SS unit.
The best kill ratio of the Tiger units had s.Pz.Abt.502 with a ratio of 14.6 to 1. But these numbers have to be taken with a lot of salt because claims does not mean actual "killings". So the numbers have nothing to say in my oppinion.
I always ask people with the ridiculous oppinion that the W-SS is better in everything why a farmer who was drafted 1943 should be a better tankcrewman than a Heer tanker who was in constant combat since 1939. We all know when the W-SS started to build up the tank arm. The Heer had several years of experience ahead. Of course the tacticians on the schools were often Heer teacher but the field experience was within the Heer formations.
1943 the tank division with the highest number of kills (claimed) was 11.Pz.Div.
The performance of the W-SS is overhyped by many but not all writers. I think that this already started during the war when for propaganda purposes the W-SS was in the news all the time with victories sometimes not even achieved by them (I have examples).
To know who was "better" would mean you know every single action of every single unit during the entire war!! Otherwise you would not be able to judge and then you have the problem which factors you take into consideration because a unit was never in the same situation than another one (enemy, weather, supply, fatigue, tactical situation, terrain etc....)
just my 2cents,
Christoph
The training for Heer and Waffen-SS was the same although many people keep continuing the myth that the W-SS training was better, harder etc...
MAny people keep saying that W-SS units performed better and when challenged by me (this topic comes up frequently) nobody has been able to provide hard facts. It is all just hearsay and from my experience and research the first line Heer formations e.g. 1., 2., 3., 4.Pz., GD had the same professional performance like any W-SS unit.
The best kill ratio of the Tiger units had s.Pz.Abt.502 with a ratio of 14.6 to 1. But these numbers have to be taken with a lot of salt because claims does not mean actual "killings". So the numbers have nothing to say in my oppinion.
I always ask people with the ridiculous oppinion that the W-SS is better in everything why a farmer who was drafted 1943 should be a better tankcrewman than a Heer tanker who was in constant combat since 1939. We all know when the W-SS started to build up the tank arm. The Heer had several years of experience ahead. Of course the tacticians on the schools were often Heer teacher but the field experience was within the Heer formations.
1943 the tank division with the highest number of kills (claimed) was 11.Pz.Div.
The performance of the W-SS is overhyped by many but not all writers. I think that this already started during the war when for propaganda purposes the W-SS was in the news all the time with victories sometimes not even achieved by them (I have examples).
I think the discussion about "better" has nothing to do with serious historical discussion. This is something for computer game historians and toy tank playing kids.Are there better army panzer divisions late war then the premier classic SS?
To know who was "better" would mean you know every single action of every single unit during the entire war!! Otherwise you would not be able to judge and then you have the problem which factors you take into consideration because a unit was never in the same situation than another one (enemy, weather, supply, fatigue, tactical situation, terrain etc....)
claims are that cannot be proofed without the files of the enemy. Claims are often totally exagerated because a tanker cannot not determine if the claimed tank is really out of action for longer, total or just for a few minutes.I've heard that 2nd ss das reich had 4800 confirmed tank kills. Was this surpassed by any other formation?
just my 2cents,
Christoph
liuanru
re training.
Keep in mind that this is a feature of time frame. The orginal LAH and Verfugenstruppe had one kind of training - or actually two, since the former had more ceremonial duties than the latter. Hausser's training methods with V-Div seem to have been based loosely on storm troop tactics of first war. But then - so were the tactics preached by Guderian and the pz troops of the heer.
Training methods changed over the course of the war as experience was gathered and assimilated from both Heer and SS units. More attention to the tactical - less to ceremony for sure.
Then to muddy the water you have 12 SS Pz which had its own little training scenario with the emphasis on sport, night fighting and marksmenship with almost no attention at all to square bashing. Max Wunsche, who was an experience tank officer from LAH sent his tank crews to the Pz Factory for a week or so as a training option. A good idea in my opinion. Also had an influx of army officers who had both battle experience and HJ leadership experience, plus a cadre from LAH. Very much a special case however.
But back to the time factor - see that same 12 SS Pz div in Dec '44 and you see a different div all together - no large formation training, very poor infantry training etc.
The same holds true for the Heer infantry for example - compare and 1940 infantry division to a '44 VG div and you'll see pretty similar fire power (over all) but a much poorer level of training. Late war formations, both SS and Army - tended to rely very much on the surviving cadres and the Ersatz Bn to bring replacements up to speed in a formation - particularly as many of those replacements were sent in large batches from the Luftwaffe and Navy.
cheers
Reb
re training.
Keep in mind that this is a feature of time frame. The orginal LAH and Verfugenstruppe had one kind of training - or actually two, since the former had more ceremonial duties than the latter. Hausser's training methods with V-Div seem to have been based loosely on storm troop tactics of first war. But then - so were the tactics preached by Guderian and the pz troops of the heer.
Training methods changed over the course of the war as experience was gathered and assimilated from both Heer and SS units. More attention to the tactical - less to ceremony for sure.
Then to muddy the water you have 12 SS Pz which had its own little training scenario with the emphasis on sport, night fighting and marksmenship with almost no attention at all to square bashing. Max Wunsche, who was an experience tank officer from LAH sent his tank crews to the Pz Factory for a week or so as a training option. A good idea in my opinion. Also had an influx of army officers who had both battle experience and HJ leadership experience, plus a cadre from LAH. Very much a special case however.
But back to the time factor - see that same 12 SS Pz div in Dec '44 and you see a different div all together - no large formation training, very poor infantry training etc.
The same holds true for the Heer infantry for example - compare and 1940 infantry division to a '44 VG div and you'll see pretty similar fire power (over all) but a much poorer level of training. Late war formations, both SS and Army - tended to rely very much on the surviving cadres and the Ersatz Bn to bring replacements up to speed in a formation - particularly as many of those replacements were sent in large batches from the Luftwaffe and Navy.
cheers
Reb
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Christoph Awender
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From 28.June 1942 to 11.March 1943 the division claimed 1000 enemy tanks while losing 50 total writeoffs.liuanru wrote:What was 11th panzer's claims?
Some books actually say the the W-ss had harder training. However, some don't.
i think das reich had 8000 claimed.
For a current project I research training schedules of W-SS and Heer members to compare them and there is definately no relevant difference. When someone (or a book) says so he did not research it and follows the usual hearsay of the great difference. But I know it is hard to believe if someone doesn´t want to hear it.
\Christoph
8000 is claimed by member of the division, 4800 were proven, supposidlyAbteilung wrote:Yes, by the 2nd SS das reich, a division that seems to double its kills at an interesting speed:liuanru wrote:I've heard that 2nd ss das reich had 4800 confirmed tank kills. Was this surpassed by any other formation?liuanru wrote:i think das reich had 8000 claimed.
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Christoph Awender
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And what does that have to do with the fact that 11.Pz.Div. claimed 1000 tanks between the two dates I gave above??liuanru wrote:8000 is claimed by member of the division, 4800 were proven, supposidlyAbteilung wrote:Yes, by the 2nd SS das reich, a division that seems to double its kills at an interesting speed:liuanru wrote:I've heard that 2nd ss das reich had 4800 confirmed tank kills. Was this surpassed by any other formation?liuanru wrote:i think das reich had 8000 claimed.
I support the idea that the fame of the SS Panzer Divisions has much to do with the fact that Goebbels propaganda machine was in constant need to provide heroes for local consumption.
I don't really know to what extent the civilian population at the time did consider the Waffen SS divisions as the best units in the Armed Forces. Perhaps Cristoph could help us on that one.
Then of course you have the case of SS-Hauptsturmführer Michael Wittmann, the most successful "Tiger-ace" of the war. People like Peiper and Wittman did a lot to help foster the legend that the Waffen SS panzer divisions were "special".
regards
/corderex
I don't really know to what extent the civilian population at the time did consider the Waffen SS divisions as the best units in the Armed Forces. Perhaps Cristoph could help us on that one.
Then of course you have the case of SS-Hauptsturmführer Michael Wittmann, the most successful "Tiger-ace" of the war. People like Peiper and Wittman did a lot to help foster the legend that the Waffen SS panzer divisions were "special".
regards
/corderex
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Christoph Awender
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I also don´know. I just interviewed former soldiers but looking at contemporary newspapers, magazines, newsreels etc.. the Waffen-SS is always put into the light.I don't really know to what extent the civilian population at the time did consider the Waffen SS divisions as the best units in the Armed Forces. Perhaps Cristoph could help us on that one.
Wittman was also a Propaganda star made for the purpose of giving the people a hero. If you look at the numbers you will see that the Heer did have a good share of aces too. But not that many know them.Then of course you have the case of SS-Hauptsturmführer Michael Wittmann, the most successful "Tiger-ace" of the war. People like Peiper and Wittman did a lot to help foster the legend that the Waffen SS panzer divisions were "special".
Of these 61 soldiers 45 are members of Heer units plus the 3 top listed.1.Kurt Knispel –168 Kills (sPzAbt. 503)
2.Otto Carius – 150+ Kills (sPzAbt. 502)–Tiger I--Knight's Cross 5/4/44, Oak Leaves 7/27/44.
3.Johannes (Hans) Bolter-- 139 Kills (possibly 144) (sPzAbt. 502) Tigers– Knight's Cross 4/16/44, Oak Leaves 9/10/44.
4.Michael Wittman – 138 Kills (sS.S.PzAbt. 101 Liebstandarte)–Tiger I–Knight's Cross 1/14/44, Oak Leaves 1/14/44 with Swords, 6/25/44.
5.Hans Sandrock – 123 Kills (assorted AFV last unit HJ )
6.Paul Egger – 113 Kills (s SS Pz. Abt. 102)–Tigers– Knight's cross 4/28/45
7.Fritz Lang– 113 Kills (StuG. Abt. 232)
8.Arno Giesen – 111 Kills (Das Reich)
9.Oberfahnrich Rondorf—106 kills (sPzAbt. 503)–Tigers
10.Feldwebel Gärtner - 103 Kills (sPzAbt. 503)–Tigers
11.Karl Koener – 100+ Kills (sS.S.PzAbt. 503)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 4/29/44.
12.Albert Kerscher – 100+ Kills (sPzAbt. 502)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 10/23/44.
13.Balthazar (Bobby) Woll–100+ Kills, 81 as Gunner (sSS Pz. Abt. 101)–Knight's Cross–1/16/44.
14.Helmut Wendorff—84 Kills (sS.S.Pz Abt.101)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 2/12/44.
15.Ernst Barkmann—82+ Kills (Das Reich)—Panther–Knight's Cross 8/27/44.
16.Eric Litztke—76 Kills (sPzAbt. 509)--Tigers– Knight's Cross 10/20/44
17.Hermann Bix – 75+ Kills (4th Panzer Division)–Knight's Cross 3/22/45.
18.Hans Strippel – 70 Kills (4. / II/ PzAbt. 1, 1st Pz. Division)–Pz. IV–Knight's Cross 6/4/44.
19.Emil Seibold – 69 Kills (Das Reich)–Pz IV+ Captured T-34s
20.Wilhelm Knauth—68 Kills (sPzAbt. 505)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 11/14/43.
21.Hugo Primozic– 68 Kills (StuG Abt. 667)–Knight's Cross 9/25/42, Oak Leaves 1/25/43.
22.Karl Bromann – 66 Kills (sS.S.PzAbt. 503)–Tigers.
23.Josef William (Sepp) Brandner – 61 Kills (StuG Brigade 912)–Knight's Cross 1/17/45, Oak Leaves 4/30/45.
24.Hans-Bobo von Rohr – 58 Kills (25 Pz. Abt., 7th Pz. Division)–Knight's Cross 11/15/44, Oak leaves 4/8/45 (Posthumously).
25.Karl Heinz Warmbrunn-- 57 Kills, 44 as gunner (s SS Pz. Abt. 101)–Tigers
26.Albert Ernst–55 Kills–(s.Pz. Jgr. Abt. 519)--Nashorn–Knight's Cross–2/7/44.
27.Richard Engelmann—54 Kills (StuG Abt. 912)–Knight's Cross 7/22/44.
28.Heinz Kling–51 Kills (s SS Pz. Abt. 101)--Tigers.
29.Johann Muller–50 Kills ((sPz. Abt. 502)--Tigers–Knight's Cross 10/23/44.
30.Josef Dallmeier—50 Kills (Fhr. PzJager Kp.1183)–Hetzer–Knight's Cross 4/3/45(?).
31.Walter Feibig—50+ Kills (StuG Brigade 301)
32.Heinz Kramer – 50+ Kills (sPzAbt. 502)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 10/6/44.
33.Alfredo Carpaneto – 50+ Kills (sPzAbt. 502)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 3/28/45.
34.Oberleutnant Mausberg – 50+ Kills (s.Pz. Abt. 505)–Tigers.
35.Wolfgang Hans Heimer Paul von Bostell–48 Kills–( Pz. Jgr. Kp. 1023, Pz. Jgr. Abt. 205)–Knight's Cross 9/2/44, Oak Leaves 4/30/45.
36.Jurgen Brandt—47 Kills (sS.S.Abt. 101)–Tigers.
37.Heinz Deutsch – 44 Kills (Fsch. StuG Brigade 12) Knight's Cross 4/28/45.
38.Fritz Amling—42+ Kills (in 48 Hrs. with StuG Brigade 202) Knight's Cross 12/5/42.
39.Heinz Scharf—40+ Kills (StuG Brigade 202) Knight's Cross 9/5/44.
40.Walter Oberloskamp – 40+ Kills (StuG Brigade 667) Knight's Cross 5/15/43.
41.Fredrich Tadje—39 Kills (StuG Abt. 190) Knight's Cross 10/24/42.
42.Rudolf Roy—36 Kills (12 S.S. PanzerJager Abt. HJ)–JP IV–Knight's Cross 10/16/44.
43.Gottwald Stier—30+ Kills (StuG Brigade 667) Knight's Cross (date unknown).
44.Josef Trager – 30+ Kills (StuG Brigade 667) Knight's Cross (date unknown).
45.Richard Schram—30 Kills (StuG Brigade 202) Knight's Cross 12/12/42.
46.Karl Pfreundtner—30 Kills (StuG Abt. 244) Knight's Cross 9/18/42.
47.Karl Heinrich Banze – 24 Kills (13 on one day StuG Abt. 244) Knight's Cross 5/27/42.
48.Felix Adamowitsch –23 Kills (in an 8 day period, StuG Abt. 244) Knight's Cross 10/20/44.
49.Eugen Metzger—23 Kills (StuG Abt. 203) Knight's Cross 9/29/41.
50.Hauptmann Rade –23 Kills (StuG Abt. 244)
51.Heinrich Teriete – 22 Kills (in one engagement, sPzJgAbt. 653) Knight's Cross 7/22/43.
52.Franz Staudegger—22+ Kills (sS.S.Pz Abt. 101) Knight's Cross 7/10/43.
53.Franz Kretshmer – 21 Kills (sPzJgAbt. 653) Knight's Cross 12/17/43
54.Horst Naumann—21 Kills (StuG Abt. 184) Knight's Cross 1/4/43
55.Klaus Wagner – 18 Kills (in two days, StuG Abt. 667)
56.Hermann Feldheim—16 Kills (sPzJgAbt. 654)
57.Heinrich Engel –15 Kills (StuG Abt. 259) Knight's Cross 11/7/43
58. Rudolf von Ribbentrop– 14 Kills (LSSAH+ HJ) Knight's Cross 7/20/43.
59. Wachtmeister Moj–12 Kills (StuG Abt. 190)
60. Siegfried Freyer– 11 Kills in one engagement (Pz. Abt. 24) Knight's Cross 7/23/43.
61. Alfred Reginitor–10 Kills (StuG Abt. 279) Knight's Cross (date unknown).
\Christoph
Last edited by Christoph Awender on Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jan-Hendrik
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Christoph Awender
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Good thing Himmler didn't went on to create Waffen SS Jagd- or Stukageschwadern! (Not that the fat one would have tolerated this intromission with his "everything that flies belongs to me" philosophy!)
If that had been the case, maybe guys like Rudell or Marseille would have had to stand aside and make room for the most "glamorous" Waffen SS fighter- or stuka-aces!
Otto Carius is not so well known as Wittmann for the single reason that he was not Waffen SS, so he got much less publicity, both during the war and afterwards. Again, blame it on Goebbels if you want to.
If that had been the case, maybe guys like Rudell or Marseille would have had to stand aside and make room for the most "glamorous" Waffen SS fighter- or stuka-aces!
Otto Carius is not so well known as Wittmann for the single reason that he was not Waffen SS, so he got much less publicity, both during the war and afterwards. Again, blame it on Goebbels if you want to.