I seem to recall that having read somewhere that one of the reasons that the german authorities shifted from massshootings of jews such as those in Babi Yar, the ukraine had something to do with it not being 'costeffective' since bullets were more expensive than zyclone B.
Then I read Richard Holmes' Master of Death, where he states that the main reason using gas instead of massshooting had something to do with the psychological impact it had on the executioners, especially since Himmler once witnessed such an execution and was appaled by the horror.
I know one also has to take into account that the deathcamps where on the one hand propably more expensive to run but on the other hand there were also industrial benefits to reap from forced slave labour. But the question is still did the germans take the price of a bullet into account when it came down to what means of committing genocide?
Sincerely
David
Masshootings and the final solution
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Craig Soward
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I have also read that the move to gas came through wanting to be "more humane", not to the victims but to the killers!
The effects of shooting (especially women & children) at close quarters was having a huge effect on the moral, of the men so another less stressful method was sought.
Many Nazi's thought it was ironic that they were using an insecticide (Zyklon B) to kill Jews, whom they referred to as vermin.
The effects of shooting (especially women & children) at close quarters was having a huge effect on the moral, of the men so another less stressful method was sought.
Many Nazi's thought it was ironic that they were using an insecticide (Zyklon B) to kill Jews, whom they referred to as vermin.
They shall not grow old, as we who are left grow old. Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun & in the morning...WE WILL REMEMBER THEM. LEST WE FORGET!
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Christoph Awender
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Laurent Daniel
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From what I know, another factor was also taken into consideration: Discretion.
Beside being, as rightly mentioned above, "costly and stressfull for the murderers", mass shooting was much more difficult to hide than a well organised death camp with a minimum number of witnesses, I mean alive witnesses.
The Nazis, all along the war, have done their best to keep the world, especially the German people, in the ignorance of what was going on really.
There were leaks, some were informed, but never on a large scale.
I have an hypothesis to offer here: The majority of the German people, including many soldiers, including in the Waffen SS, discovered the extend of the genocides only after the war.
Am I correct in that hypothesis?
Beside being, as rightly mentioned above, "costly and stressfull for the murderers", mass shooting was much more difficult to hide than a well organised death camp with a minimum number of witnesses, I mean alive witnesses.
The Nazis, all along the war, have done their best to keep the world, especially the German people, in the ignorance of what was going on really.
There were leaks, some were informed, but never on a large scale.
I have an hypothesis to offer here: The majority of the German people, including many soldiers, including in the Waffen SS, discovered the extend of the genocides only after the war.
Am I correct in that hypothesis?
Regards
Daniel Laurent
Daniel Laurent
Daniel
Your hypothesis is a very delicate subject and have often been discussed
One thing you need to take into account is the need for the german population to distance itself from these atrocities. I am not saying that everyone was aware of the attrocities, but when you take into account how many people was actually involved in the final solution on many different levels it seems a little bit odd that this information at some level had not trickled down to the general popultion. I know of letters from danish ss-volunteers who wrote home telling about shootings etc. In my view a large part of the german population was quite aware that something sinister was going on in the east. When you take krystal nacht, the nuremberg laws and all the other different acts the german authorities pulled from 33 until the death camps was up and running it would not be that difficult to figure out that something a lot more evil could be going on.
As we have seen on many posts there is a tendency of putting the blame on either just the ss so the wehrmacht was not to blame for the atrocities. This served the purpose of being able to rebuild the armed service so soon after the war under the threat of the cold war.
Its more or less the same with the question of whether the german population had knowledge of the final solution. If one could claim that they had no such knowledge then the population could not be blamed for standing by while one of the worst crimes in modern times was commited and by that in the years to come would be able to distance itself as a population, as a nation, as a nation with a history to still be proud of.
But when that is said it is unfortunately an excuse that many nations that has commited genocide often tend to use. Just think of turkey who claims that it was the ottoman empire that committed genocide against the armenians and by that washes its hands of guilt.
Your hypothesis is a very delicate subject and have often been discussed
One thing you need to take into account is the need for the german population to distance itself from these atrocities. I am not saying that everyone was aware of the attrocities, but when you take into account how many people was actually involved in the final solution on many different levels it seems a little bit odd that this information at some level had not trickled down to the general popultion. I know of letters from danish ss-volunteers who wrote home telling about shootings etc. In my view a large part of the german population was quite aware that something sinister was going on in the east. When you take krystal nacht, the nuremberg laws and all the other different acts the german authorities pulled from 33 until the death camps was up and running it would not be that difficult to figure out that something a lot more evil could be going on.
As we have seen on many posts there is a tendency of putting the blame on either just the ss so the wehrmacht was not to blame for the atrocities. This served the purpose of being able to rebuild the armed service so soon after the war under the threat of the cold war.
Its more or less the same with the question of whether the german population had knowledge of the final solution. If one could claim that they had no such knowledge then the population could not be blamed for standing by while one of the worst crimes in modern times was commited and by that in the years to come would be able to distance itself as a population, as a nation, as a nation with a history to still be proud of.
But when that is said it is unfortunately an excuse that many nations that has commited genocide often tend to use. Just think of turkey who claims that it was the ottoman empire that committed genocide against the armenians and by that washes its hands of guilt.
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Laurent Daniel
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Food for taught, thanks.
You have a point there. We had the same sort of attitude in France after the war: Beside a handfull of "traitors" and "criminals", the huge majority of the French people suffered under Petain rule and German occupation.
We put the traitors in jail, sent the criminals to the firing squad and then, everybody left being nice patriots, let's forget and rebuild the country. That was originally initiated by De Gaulle himself, who didn't mind to distort history if it was for the sake of national unity.
The very same De Gaulle pushed quickly for the same sort of attitude towards Germany: They are carrying properly their "De-nazification", let's go ahead with them. Its successors will follow the same path:
1948: Creation of the Deutsch-Französisches Institut
1950: France proposes to Germany to join a supra-national organization intended to regulate the European coal and steel market (CECA, origin of the EU)
I still wonder, however, what was the % of the German population who was really aware that something darker than simple "relocation" was happening in the East.
Well, we will probably never know.
You have a point there. We had the same sort of attitude in France after the war: Beside a handfull of "traitors" and "criminals", the huge majority of the French people suffered under Petain rule and German occupation.
We put the traitors in jail, sent the criminals to the firing squad and then, everybody left being nice patriots, let's forget and rebuild the country. That was originally initiated by De Gaulle himself, who didn't mind to distort history if it was for the sake of national unity.
The very same De Gaulle pushed quickly for the same sort of attitude towards Germany: They are carrying properly their "De-nazification", let's go ahead with them. Its successors will follow the same path:
1948: Creation of the Deutsch-Französisches Institut
1950: France proposes to Germany to join a supra-national organization intended to regulate the European coal and steel market (CECA, origin of the EU)
I still wonder, however, what was the % of the German population who was really aware that something darker than simple "relocation" was happening in the East.
Well, we will probably never know.
Regards
Daniel Laurent
Daniel Laurent
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Laurent Daniel
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Food for taught, thanks.
You have a point there. We had the same sort of attitude in France after the war: Beside a handfull of "traitors" and "criminals", the huge majority of the French people suffered under Petain rule and German occupation.
We put the traitors in jail, sent the criminals to the firing squad and then, everybody left being nice patriots, let's forget and rebuild the country. That was originally initiated by De Gaulle himself, who didn't mind to distort history if it was for the sake of national unity.
The very same De Gaulle pushed quickly for the same sort of attitude towards Germany: They are carrying properly their "De-nazification", let's go ahead with them. Its successors will follow the same path:
1948: Creation of the Deutsch-Französisches Institut
1950: France proposes to Germany to join a supra-national organization intended to regulate the European coal and steel market (CECA, origin of the EU)
I still wonder, however, what was the % of the German population who was really aware that something darker than simple "relocation" was happening in the East.
Well, we will probably never know.
You have a point there. We had the same sort of attitude in France after the war: Beside a handfull of "traitors" and "criminals", the huge majority of the French people suffered under Petain rule and German occupation.
We put the traitors in jail, sent the criminals to the firing squad and then, everybody left being nice patriots, let's forget and rebuild the country. That was originally initiated by De Gaulle himself, who didn't mind to distort history if it was for the sake of national unity.
The very same De Gaulle pushed quickly for the same sort of attitude towards Germany: They are carrying properly their "De-nazification", let's go ahead with them. Its successors will follow the same path:
1948: Creation of the Deutsch-Französisches Institut
1950: France proposes to Germany to join a supra-national organization intended to regulate the European coal and steel market (CECA, origin of the EU)
I still wonder, however, what was the % of the German population who was really aware that something darker than simple "relocation" was happening in the East.
Well, we will probably never know.
Regards
Daniel Laurent
Daniel Laurent
Hi guys
Even if many German people were aware of something sinister going on in the East, I wonder how much was known about the true scale. After all, shootings and murder of tens of thousands of people is very sinister in itself, but how much info trickled out about the whole system killing millions of people? Also the rumours of wartime could be confusing, and stresses and fears, no info sources like today, it seems very complicated.
Regards
Jake
Even if many German people were aware of something sinister going on in the East, I wonder how much was known about the true scale. After all, shootings and murder of tens of thousands of people is very sinister in itself, but how much info trickled out about the whole system killing millions of people? Also the rumours of wartime could be confusing, and stresses and fears, no info sources like today, it seems very complicated.
Regards
Jake
Most knew nothing
Actually only a few thousand Germans and non-Germans worked in the death camps, and would have known for sure. It was cleverly hidden from the others. Soldiers realized that there were mass-executions at the Eastern Front, but that's not genocide, especially in harsh and bloody war where both dictators encouraged the spiral of terror/counter-terror.
Even Helmut Schmidt, German chancellor and Wehrmacht Lieutenant (with a Jewish Opa) knew of atrocities, but nothing of the Holocaust. The decision was also taken late (Fall 1941) when the population had much else to worry about. So when the Nazi government said the Jews will be resettled in the East, why doubt them--and who could go to the Gestapo and say "I don't believe you, let me visit my old friend." The Gestapo did not torture opponents less brutally just because they were Germans.
There are some good books about that, but not as many in English as one would hope. A good primer is Norman Finkelstein, Bettina Birn, A Nation on Trial http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books
which among else also deals with the issue of definite knowledge.
But I feel the debate is meaningless and in the media just used as device for self-righeousness and bigotry. If in 1943, your olde Mama suddenly learns for certain that the Jews are not resettled but exterminated, what is she supposed to do? Is she guilty for not travelling at once from Oberviechtach or another town or hamlet, to Berlin and kill Hitler with a deft karate chop? I am often non-plussed how the American press blames powerless people for things that even if they knew them, they had no control over. Likewise, living in the US, I also do not feel guilty for letting US foreign policy happen--I am an ordinary guy and have zilch influence with G.W. Bush, and any president before and after for that matter Likewise my Oma's opinion scarcely mattered to Adolf. She did not know before 1945, but even if she had, she was still blameless for it.
Even Helmut Schmidt, German chancellor and Wehrmacht Lieutenant (with a Jewish Opa) knew of atrocities, but nothing of the Holocaust. The decision was also taken late (Fall 1941) when the population had much else to worry about. So when the Nazi government said the Jews will be resettled in the East, why doubt them--and who could go to the Gestapo and say "I don't believe you, let me visit my old friend." The Gestapo did not torture opponents less brutally just because they were Germans.
There are some good books about that, but not as many in English as one would hope. A good primer is Norman Finkelstein, Bettina Birn, A Nation on Trial http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books
which among else also deals with the issue of definite knowledge.
But I feel the debate is meaningless and in the media just used as device for self-righeousness and bigotry. If in 1943, your olde Mama suddenly learns for certain that the Jews are not resettled but exterminated, what is she supposed to do? Is she guilty for not travelling at once from Oberviechtach or another town or hamlet, to Berlin and kill Hitler with a deft karate chop? I am often non-plussed how the American press blames powerless people for things that even if they knew them, they had no control over. Likewise, living in the US, I also do not feel guilty for letting US foreign policy happen--I am an ordinary guy and have zilch influence with G.W. Bush, and any president before and after for that matter Likewise my Oma's opinion scarcely mattered to Adolf. She did not know before 1945, but even if she had, she was still blameless for it.
Honny soit qui mal y pense!
It is one thing for a few psychopaths to pour Zyklon-B into a chamber,it is another to have basically good men executing men,women and children with a shot to the head.
As posted above,the combination of psychological stress on the killers,the simple magnitude of the of the task,the waste of manpower and cost effectiveness led to the decision of gas.
And,well said Opa
As posted above,the combination of psychological stress on the killers,the simple magnitude of the of the task,the waste of manpower and cost effectiveness led to the decision of gas.
And,well said Opa
STRENGTH & HONOR
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Craig Soward
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For those of you interested in finding out just how much the German people at home knew and more about how the killings took place, here are a few books worth checking out;
What We Knew; Terror, Mass Murder & Everyday Life in Nazi Germany by Eric Johnson & Karl Heinz Reuband (2005 John Murray Publishers),
Masters of Death; The SS Einsatzgruppen & The Invention of the Holocaust by Richard Rhodes (2002 The Perseus Press),
The Good old days; The Holocaust as Seen by it's Perpetrators and Bystanders by Ernst Klee, Willi Dressen & Volker Riess (Editors) (1988 Konecky & Konecky).
Kind regards to you all,
Craig.
What We Knew; Terror, Mass Murder & Everyday Life in Nazi Germany by Eric Johnson & Karl Heinz Reuband (2005 John Murray Publishers),
Masters of Death; The SS Einsatzgruppen & The Invention of the Holocaust by Richard Rhodes (2002 The Perseus Press),
The Good old days; The Holocaust as Seen by it's Perpetrators and Bystanders by Ernst Klee, Willi Dressen & Volker Riess (Editors) (1988 Konecky & Konecky).
Kind regards to you all,
Craig.
They shall not grow old, as we who are left grow old. Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun & in the morning...WE WILL REMEMBER THEM. LEST WE FORGET!
Servus,
My grandmother was a volkseutsche from Yugoslavia and I enjoyed her telling me stories about "back home." One story I vividly remember was about how Jews were on the main road to Pantschewo being taken off to be killed. I asked her how she knew they were being taken to be killed and she said that if you saw how they were being treated, you knew they were going to be killed. She didn't elaborate and I , regretfully, didn't ask.
So, using this short story as a basis, I believe that, yes, Germans knew, in general terms, what was going on but, as stated earlier, perhaps not the magnitude and the scale.
Just MHO.
Regards,
Helmut
My grandmother was a volkseutsche from Yugoslavia and I enjoyed her telling me stories about "back home." One story I vividly remember was about how Jews were on the main road to Pantschewo being taken off to be killed. I asked her how she knew they were being taken to be killed and she said that if you saw how they were being treated, you knew they were going to be killed. She didn't elaborate and I , regretfully, didn't ask.
So, using this short story as a basis, I believe that, yes, Germans knew, in general terms, what was going on but, as stated earlier, perhaps not the magnitude and the scale.
Just MHO.
Regards,
Helmut
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max painless
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Torquez
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GelberMeteor
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The listening in on foreign radio programs, in particular the BBC (!), was prohibited in Germany under the threat of the most severe punishment! Therefore I dont know what was known " worldwide" , in Germany only very, very few had heard about atrocities. And then again, when there is a war, there are atrocities. Right?Torquez wrote:By 1942 the knowledge of mass opression and murder of jews was public worldwide due to BBC airings of correspondence from Poland by people who escaped and publication of report by Polish government.
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