Best division in the Waffen SS??

[oleg]

Just for the sake of the argument, the tank battle at Maciejow was in July 1944 and as far as I understand the Soviet thrust was a prelude to the general offensive in this sector. The Wehrmachtbericht stated that German units destroyed a tank corps and several rifle divisions.

where is that? In July 1944 Bagration was developing rather nicely –so I am a bit confused here as to which event you making a reference.

[Marko]

Just for the sake of the argument, the tank battle at Maciejow was in July 1944 and as far as I understand the Soviet thrust was a prelude to the general offensive in this sector. The Wehrmachtbericht stated that German units destroyed a tank corps and several rifle divisions.

where is that? In July 1944 Bagration was developing rather nicely –so I am a bit confused here as to which event you making a reference.

No need to be confused, Oleg, I was obviously referring to the Lublin-Brest offensive, you know the one you mentioned several posts before .

EDIT: Glantz describes it as a faint attack

[sid guttridge]

Hi Commissar,

My PS about the Wiking serving five years as opposed to four was meant tongue in cheek. Of course it doesn't detract from your point, any more than a spelling mistake would.

As I understand it, the Wiking's recruiting ethos was strongly anti-Communist. This is what drew many foreigners to its ranks. There weren't many Communists on other fronts to fight, so it stayed in the East.

Nor was it the only Western European W-SS or Heer volunteer formation that served only in the East. If I am not mistaken, they all did. It would, of course, simplify matters greatly if we could produce an order to that effect, but in its absence I think the record of all Western European volunteer formations speaks for itself. Were any Wehrmacht Western European volunteer formations or units fielded on any other front except the Eastern?

(The Dutch volunteers, at least, were also promised land in the East, so they had another motivation to be there rather than elsewhere.)

As regards the Caucasus, if I remember rightly, the Wiking initially advanced with the Slovak Rapid Division, not normally a byword for military eliteness, and both were brought to a standtsill in the Caucasus Mountains. Wiking was then, I think, switched eastwards behind the German and Romanian divisions that had advanced deeper into the Caucasus. This was simply crossing ground already won by other Axis units. I know that it was allocated to an advance to the Turkish border that never took place. I am not at all sure what the Wiking's great achievements were in the Caucasus that were not matched by German Army divisions and even the Slovak Rapid Division and the Romanian 2nd Mountain Division (on foot!).

I wouldn't suggest that the Wiking was other than an effective formation. It was, after all, full of motivated volunteers and was motorised. It is also, like the French Foreign Legion, interesting to observe men of diverse origins being welded into an effective formation. However, whether it particularly excelled itself is something I am less sure of. I also feel that as the standard bearer of Greater Germanic ethnic identity it probably attracts rather more attention than its purely military performance, however good, might otherwise merit.

Cheers,

Sid.

[sid guttridge]

Hi joefraser,

As I understand it, the Iranian Republican Guard performed stubbornly around Khoramshar during the first stages of the Iraqi invasion. But the Iraqis weren't particularly good and urban fighting is a great equaliser. Otherwise, in my mind, the Iranian Republican Guard is most associated with unsophisticated frontal human wave assaults that would have embarassed even WWI. It was more a popular militia than a military elite.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Reb]

Sid

You made a grammatical error:

According to American media it must ALWAYS be refered to as

"The ELITE Republicn Guard." I've never heard it referred to an anything else - at least by the media bozos.

I wonder what their standard for elite is?

cheers
Reb

[phylo_roadking]

The standard is obvious - the US Army had to go in and duke it out with them! You CAN'T have any of the Good Guys able to beat the Bad Guys by the simple expedient of saying "boo"? They had to be sh1t-hot opponents!

[Igorn]

Wiking"'s SS Panzer-Regiment 9 "Germania"

Reading is not really a strong side of you , isn't it

First , Wikings PzRgt. was SS-PzRgt.5 .

Second , II.Abtl. of SS-PzRgt.5 was not in Tscherkassy due to its reorganisation to a PantherAbt. . Which means that I.Abt. of SS-PzRgt. 5 ( Chief : SS-Stubaf. Köller ) was definitly in the pocket , see Straßner , german edition , p.235 for example ...

My Dear Friend, first of all reading has nothing to do with you friendly remark since I was reproducing the unit names from my memory. Now I am at home and can tell you that I was reffering to the following formations belonging to SS-Rgt 5 "Wiking": Panzer-Regiment 5 Stabskompanie and their II./SS-Pz Rgt 5 "Wiking"

Panzer composition was as follows:

Panzer-Regiment Stabskompanie

Nachr. Zug (Panthers R00, R01, R02)
Aufkl. Zug (Panthers R03, R04, R05, R06, R07)

II/SS-Pz. Rgt 5

Panzer-Abretlung II. Stabskompanie
Nachr. Zug (Panthers II00, II01, II02)
Aufkl. Zug (Panthers II03, II04, II05, II06, II07)

5 Panzerkompanie

Stab (Panthers 500, 501)

1. Zug (Panthers 511, 512, 513, 514, 515)
2. Zug (Panthers 521, 522, 523, 524, 525)
3. Zug (Panthers 531, 532, 533, 534, 535)

6. Panzerkompanie

Stab (Panthers 600, 601)

1. Zug (Panthers 611, 612, 613, 614, 615)
2. Zug (Panthers 621, 622, 623, 624, 625)
3. Zug (Panthers 631, 632, 633, 634, 635)

7. Panzerkompanie

Stab (Panthers 700, 701)

1. Zug (Panthers 711, 712, 713, 714, 715)
2. Zug (Panthers 721, 722, 723, 724, 725)
3. Zug (Panthers 731, 732, 733, 734, 735)

8. Panzerkompanie

Stab (Panthers 800, 801)

1. Zug (Panthers 811, 812, 813, 814, 815)
2. Zug (Panthers 821, 822, 823, 824, 825)
3. Zug (Panthers 831, 832, 833, 834, 835)

It needless to prove that the "Wikings" Panther battalion that had been forming in Germany since December 1943 was not in the Cherkassy pocket and was sent to break through to Kovel.

I hope it clarifies the issue. As the free bonus I have provided the turret number of every Panther of this Panzer Abteilung to the Feldgrau visitors.

Source: Velimir Vuksic, SS Armor on the Eastern Front 1943-1945

Best Regards from Russia,

[Igorn]

Igor, nice of you to reply. Gee, those must have been some really well-equipped infantry divisions, since at the Battle of Maciejow, Wiking reported 103 Russian tanks destroyed in half an hour.

I know what your reply will be--you can't trust German sources on destroyed Soviet tanks, especially when they tarnish your argument.

But then, the Shtat covering this period doesn't allot any tanks to the normal organization of even a Guards Infantry Division, so, either all of these tanks were imaginary or something more than 4 Soviet infantry divisions were engaged at Kowel.

David, As was pointed out by Marco, you are confusing events at Kowel, which took place from 27th March to 1-st April 1944 with events of Maciejow, which took place at the end of June 1944.

According to Strassner, reports from the units around Kowel indicated that four Russian rifle divisions-namely the 76th, 143rd, 184th and 320th-had been idetified. These division were reinforced by a tank brigade. Velimir Vuksic is reconfirming this saying that "After the retreat from the Cherkassy Pocket, the SS-Panzergrenadiere of the "Germania" and "Westland" regiments of the "Wiking" division were in a sorry state. All of the heavy weapons, and a great portion of personal weapons and equipment, had been lost. Some of this was replaced from German warehouses nearby, and then both regiments were sent by rail to Kowel, a key rail and road junction on the Polish-Ukrainian border. The men had just arrived in Kowel on 16 March 1944, when four infantry divisions and a regiment of tanks of the 2nd Byelorussian Front encircled the city."

Vuksic was talking about a regiment but the Soviet Army in 1944 didn't have tank regiments they had either tank brigades or tank Corps'. The only exception were the Heavy Guards Tank Regiments armed with JS-2 or JSU/ISU assault guns but there is no evidence that heavy Russian tanks or assault guns were in the area of Kowel in March 1944.

Best Regards from Russia,

[Igorn]

Two things, one, where did all that Soviet armor come from? Secondly, at normal strength, wouldn't five rifle divisions deploy close to 500 anti-tank rifles and 76mm cannon and other field guns or self-propelled guns above or at 76mm in calibre? David

David, Really can you back you claim that Soviet formations at Kowel 27th March-4th April 1944 had above weapon by serious sources. And what do you mean by 500 anti-tank rifles and 76mm cannons. Did you mean 500 76mm cannons or how many cannons?

But, better than me guessing, exactly how many armor-destroying weapons did those five divisions bring to bear against one German division? And how many men, since we know Wiking was understrength?

David, pls don't distort the facts. The four German rifle divisions reinforced by one tank brigade (regiment) was confronting not one German understrength division but three panzer divisions! Namely, 4th Panzer Division, 5th Panzer Divisions of the LVI Panzer-Korps and 5.SS Panzer-Division "Wiking" with their brand-new fully reconstituted Panther Abtelung with 79 Panthers (all turret numbers were provided in the previous post). On top of it some other German formations took part in combats at Kowel like Ski-Bataillon 2 (2nd Ski Battalion), assault battalion of the 2. Armee or I./Grenadier-Regiment 434 of Hauptmann Bolm (with 7 attached assault guns).

Here we have Wiking initially fighting an entire Soviet Army.....definitely nothing to sneeze at.........

Good joke.

Best Regards from Russia,

[cpa95]

David, As was pointed out by Marco, you are confusing events at Kowel, which took place from 27th March to 1-st April 1944 with events of Maciejow, which took place at the end of June 1944.

[Igorn]

Excellent map, cpa95!

One can clearly see the German formations mentioned by me on the map (e.g. 4. Pz Div, 5. Pz Div etc.).

Best Regards from Russia,

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Beautiful posts Igor, you have my respect.

However, what has all of this taught us?

1. Immediately after Cherkassy, 5th Panzer was good enough to spearhead the relief of Kovel.

2. Wiking continued to expand the Kovel defense perimeter through April.

3. A kampfgruppe of Wiking (its Panzer Regiment less I. Battalion reinforced by III. (gep.) Germania) inflicted over 100 Russian tank losses at Maciewjow, in half an hour.

All in all, I'll stick to my recommendation of 5th S.S. as the best S.S. panzer division.

Best,
~D, the EviL (P.S., Wasn't Wiking part of the posse that helped wipe out Popov's armored group during Vatutin's Kharkov offensive in 1943?)

[Igorn]

Beautiful posts Igor, you have my respect.

However, what has all of this taught us?

1. Immediately after Cherkassy, 5th Panzer was good enough to spearhead the relief of Kovel.?)

David, let'be precise the Kowel spearhead relief was spearheaded by the fully reconstituted and brand new "Wiking" Panther Abteilung with 79 Panthers, which never was the in Cherkassy pocket.

2. Wiking continued to expand the Kovel defense perimeter through April.?

I am not disputing this point.

3. A kampfgruppe of Wiking (its Panzer Regiment less I. Battalion reinforced by III. (gep.) Germania) inflicted over 100 Russian tank losses at Maciewjow, in half an hour..

Here I have some questons. Can you provide details, which Soviets formations on June 22 1944 confronting Wikings lost at Maciewjow in half an hour over 100 tanks since I want to check it through Russian sources?

Second question, it is known that the German High Command halfed the claims of German tankers regarding their claims of tank kills since they sometimes looked as fisherman stories. Are you talking here about unjustified claims of German tankers or adjusted figures? Let's also agree that official information communicated to the Wehrmacht in June 1944 is not highly reliable source since it was endorced by Propoganda Ministry of Dr. Goebbels and served the purpose to boost the troops morale.

(P.S., Wasn't Wiking part of the posse that helped wipe out Popov's armored group during Vatutin's Kharkov offensive in 1943?)

I can only tell you that the LAH, DR, Totenkopf, GD and some others all claimed that they wiped out Popov's group. So, I don't see here the special role of "Wiking".

Best Regards from Russia,

[cpa95]

I can only tell you that the LAH, DR, Totenkopf, GD and some others all claimed that they wiped out Popov's group. So, I don't see here the special role of "Wiking".
Best Regards from Russia,

see:
Carl Wagener, Ia/ 1.Panzerarmee, Der Gegenangriff des XXXX. PK gegen den Durchbruch der Panzergrupe Popow, in: WWR 1957, p. 21 ff.

(the counterattack of XXXX. PK)

Engaged german units: 7., 11., 16. PD, SS-W and infantry divisions. The task of SS-W was to block the russian advance.

Greetings
Thomas

[kingtiger88]

Hi igorn....
it is great to see all the info flowing from your end in this debate...this has been one of the better revelations for me on this forum....thanx