Best division in the Waffen SS??

[dduff442]

The W-SS was a politicized counterweight to the Wehrmacht. It made the networking needed to mount a clean coup nearly impossible.

Look at any democracy in the world and you'll find a minimum of services -- usually just three. Look at any dictatorship and you'll find a plethora: Militias, Presidential Guards, Strategic Forces, etc. etc.

For an élite force, like our SS, it's great luck to have suffered comparatively heavy losses.

...Hitler self-consciously used his most loyal supporters. Did his lieutenants not do likewise? And did this pattern not characterise the entire upper echelons of the SS? It reminds me of the post-war joke: A little fairy visited Germany and granted everyone wishes: You could be honest, clever, or a Nazi. The only catch was you could only have two of the three.

Regardsio,
dduff

[GelberMeteor]

Look at any democracy in the world and you'll find a minimum of services -- usually just three. Look at any dictatorship and you'll find a plethora: Militias, Presidential Guards, Strategic Forces, etc. etc.

Thats an interesting theory! I am certainly not an expert in (for the sake of argument) US military organisations: But from the top of my head there is quite an impressive list of military and paramilitary organisations, from coast guard to internal and external intelligence, from special-ops to Federal Police, plus, Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force...an expert will certainly put together a much longer list.
Hitler had: Wehrmacht (Heer, Marine, Luftwaffe) and the SS. No militias after reducing the SA to zero. Presidential Guards - is that not the same as body guards??? There was one police force plus one secret police, is that more than the current US situation? One foreign intelligence (Abwehr), is that more than the CIA in the US? Are there others?
I think your conclusion that democracies have a minimum of services sounds good, but is miles from reality!
Best wishes Meteor

[sid guttridge]

Hi Gelbermeteor,

You are ignoring the myriad of officially sponsored Nazi uniformed pre-, para- and fully military organisations such as not only the SA (which was never reduced to zero), but the SS, NSKK, NSFK, RAD, HJ, OT, Volksturm, KDF, etc., etc. Where are their US equivalents?

Cheers,

Sid.

[GelberMeteor]

Hi Gelbermeteor,

You are ignoring the myriad of officially sponsored Nazi uniformed pre-, para- and fully military organisations such as not only the SA (which was never reduced to zero), but the SS, NSKK, NSFK, RAD, HJ, OT, Volksturm, KDF, etc., etc. Where are their US equivalents?

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi Sid,

true and not true :-) but an interesting list anyway! SS, you are of course right, it is a fourth military service as have the US. NSKK and NSFK were non-governmental organisations to attract the youth to the party (teaching to drive or to fly) and at the same time to serve as pre-military training, so they might be considered both. RAD was a tool to reduce unemployment by letting people work on infrastructure like roads, canals etc. HJ a party-youth organisation, OT equals Engineer Corps, Volkssturm is part of the reserve force with similarity to the National Guard, KDF is a newly formed (sort of) trade union. What they all do have in common is a structure that can be called "military" and uniforms, even if they were civilian or non-governmental. But some of this was even true for boy scouts at the time.

US equivalents? Well, the closer one looks, the more matches are obvious. Just as one example: I read on Homeland Defence just weeks ago:

The Department of Homeland Security consolidates 22 agencies and 180,000 employees, unifying once-fragmented Federal functions in a single agency dedicated to protecting America from terrorism.

Although this was done years back it may serve as a fine example of "myriades" of agencies engaged in combatting an enemy of whatever description.

From a purely military point there were in Germany the 2 main forces: Wehrmacht with 3 branches and the SS. Whether one chooses to commission the personal security of a head of state to a staff of FBI agents or to a specific unit of the SS is purely academic. Go back to the Romans and we will find a guard unit descibed as 10 cohortes praetoriae, doing exactly the same job with same responsibilities. Just different looks and arms.

Best wishes, Glück ab! Meteor

[sid guttridge]

Hi Gelbermeteor,

In a one party state like Nazi Germany there is no functional difference between government- and party- sponsored organisations. The entire list I gave you was of such a character and no equivalent exists in the US.

For example, in Germany, after the Nazis came to power the HJ was paid for out of state funds and membership became compulsory. In the US one can hardly equate the independent and voluntary Boy Scouts with the Hitler Youth.

The OT was not the equivalent of the Engineers Corps. The German Army already had an engineer corps. The OT was quite separate. What was its official paramilitary US equivalent?

The RAD was a compulsory part of pre-military training bridging the gap between Hitler Youth service and military conscription. In it young men were conditioned to military-style discipline and physical exercise by doing public labour in the year before they were conscripted into the Army. What was its official US paramilitary equivalent?

The Volksturm was organised by the Nazi hierarchy, using the Army's older reservists (particularly including SA men) and the older Hitler Youths. What was its official US equivalent?

The NSKK and NSFK were really extensions of the SA specialising in promoting awareness and experience of mechanisation and flying. What was the official US paramilitary equivalent?

And what is the US equivalent to the Waffen-SS? Please don't say the US Marine Corps. This has a specialist function not possessed by the US Army - amphibious warfare. No such justification exists for the Waffen-SS.

In so far as these functions existed officially in the US, they tended to either be the responsibility of the reserve elements of the US armed forces or were entirely civilian. In Germany they became the province of multiple competing independent agencies.

I think dduff442's point was well made. In democracies military and (in so far as they exist at all) paramilitary functions tend to come under a smaller number of official agencies. In totalitarian dictatorships a myriad of competing agencies tend to emerge. Hitler had a perfectly good Army, but he created the SA to compete for its role and the SS then emerged to sit on the shoulder of the SA. In Iraq Saddam Hussein already had an Army, but he set up not only a Republican Guard, but a Special Republican Guard to compete for its turf. Another few years and I wouldn't have bet against the creation of an Extra Special National Guard!

Cheers,

Sid.

[GelberMeteor]

And what is the US equivalent to the Waffen-SS? Please don't say the US Marine Corps. This has a specialist function not possessed by the US Army - amphibious warfare. No such justification exists for the Waffen-SS.

In so far as these functions existed officially in the US, they tended to either be the responsibility of the reserve elements of the US armed forces or were entirely civilian. In Germany they became the province of multiple competing independent agencies.

Hi Sid,
I certainly did not compare the SS with any US branches! And why did you avoid a comment on the sentence taken from the site on homeland security, which I repeat here:

"The Department of Homeland Security consolidates 22 agencies and 180,000 employees, unifying once-fragmented Federal functions in a single agency dedicated to protecting America from terrorism."

That concentration was done as consequence of 9/11 and happened 2 or 3 years ago! Till then the perfectly democratic USA had some 22 agencies on terror protection alone. And from here onward one can start counting:
Army, Navy, Airforce, Marine corps, National Guard, Reserve, ROTC (talking about youth military training!!!!!), etc. etc. Now come on! Even if you count the BDM you will never find a total number in Germany (as example) anywhere near this list-to-be-assembled for the US if you have to start with the mentioned 22 agencies.
Mind you, this doesnt compare any formation with anything in the USA. We are just talking about the "Myriades" or sheer numbers of organizations, which (in my humble judgement) seem to be a characteristic of the democratically organized states. And why? Because the idea of checks&balances was an element in setting up organizations. By all standards of logic there is only the fear of a coup that makes a dictators guards a very special act. Other than that a dictatorship must be interested in running a simple and easy to overlook structure. Would they not?

Glück ab! Meteor

[sid guttridge]

Hi Gelbermeteor,

Perhaps you would care to list these 22 agencies so that we can make a judgement.

However, in advance I would note that they comprise only 180,000 professional people out of a population of about 250 million.

I find it highly unlikely that even combined they are in any way comparable with such mass organisations as the SA, HJ, RAD, OT, etc., which were massively larger institutions in a smaller population of some 80 million.

When did the National Guard, Reserve and ROTC become separate from the US Army? Surely they are integral with the army's reserves system. Are you now going to suggest that the Ersatzheer wasn't part of the Heer in Nazi Germany?

Cheers,

Sid.

[sid guttridge]

P.S. I just typed in "US National Guard" into Google. Guess what? Its official title is "Army National Guard".

Cheers,

Sid.

[sid guttridge]

P.P.S. I did the same for "ROTC".

It is apparently divided into the Army ROTC and the Air Force ROTC.

Cheers,

Sid.

[GelberMeteor]

Hi Gelbermeteor,

Perhaps you would care to list these 22 agencies so that we can make a judgement.

However, in advance I would note that they comprise only 180,000 professional people out of a population of about 250 million.

I find it highly unlikely that even combined they are in any way comparable with such mass organisations as the SA, HJ, RAD, OT, etc., which were massively larger institutions in a smaller population of some 80 million.

When did the National Guard, Reserve and ROTC become separate from the US Army? Surely they are integral with the army's reserves system. Are you now going to suggest that the Ersatzheer wasn't part of the Heer in Nazi Germany?

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi,
this is utterly ridiculous! dduff says: Look at any democracy in the world and you'll find a minimum of services -- usually just three. Look at any dictatorship and you'll find a plethora: Militias, Presidential Guards, Strategic Forces, etc. etc.

And when I look at the US as "any democracy" I find "this minimum of services" solely for anti-terror involved agencies:

"History: Who Became Part of the Department?

The agencies slated to become part of the Department of Homeland Security will be housed in one of four major directorates: Border and Transportation Security, Emergency Preparedness and Response, Science and Technology, and Information Analysis and Infrastructure Protection.

The Border and Transportation Security directorate will bring the major border security and transportation operations under one roof, including:

The U.S. Customs Service (Treasury)
The Immigration and Naturalization Service (part) (Justice)
The Federal Protective Service
The Transportation Security Administration (Transportation)
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (Treasury)
Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (part)(Agriculture)
Office for Domestic Preparedness (Justice)

The Emergency Preparedness and Response directorate will oversee domestic disaster preparedness training and coordinate government disaster response. It will bring together:

The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)
Strategic National Stockpile and the National Disaster Medical System (HHS)
Nuclear Incident Response Team (Energy)
Domestic Emergency Support Teams (Justice)
National Domestic Preparedness Office (FBI)

The Science and Technology directorate will seek to utilize all scientific and technological advantages when securing the homeland. The following assets will be part of this effort:

CBRN Countermeasures Programs (Energy)
Environmental Measurements Laboratory (Energy)
National BW Defense Analysis Center (Defense)
Plum Island Animal Disease Center (Agriculture)

The Information Analysis and Infrastructure Protection directorate will analyze intelligence and information from other agencies (including the CIA, FBI, DIA and NSA) involving threats to homeland security and evaluate vulnerabilities in the nation's infrastructure. It will bring together:

Federal Computer Incident Response Center (GSA)
National Communications System (Defense)
National Infrastructure Protection Center (FBI)
Energy Security and Assurance Program (Energy)

The Secret Service and the Coast Guard will also be located in the Department of Homeland Security, remaining intact and reporting directly to the Secretary. In addition, the INS adjudications and benefits programs will report directly to the Deputy Secretary as the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services."
Source:http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/e ... l_0133.xml

Then you start talking about the membership numbers of the organizations which has got nothing to do with with the "myriades" of agencies - nothing at all!

And to top this (excuse my wording) nonsense of you find Reserve, National Guard, ROTC under Army. Well, yes - for Gods sake! But if could Google it you would find NSSK, NSFK, HJ, and a number of others under the keyword NSDAP!
Now that I brought you the names of the 22 agencies you wanted specified, why dont you and dduff make a list of branches or organizations or agencies to compare the numbers. As example you may take the US and Germany 33- 45. Until one cannot compare what you mean with this statement above I can only take it as unsubstantiated speculation. To be honest: Without any numbers its crab.
Glück ab! Meteor

[sid guttridge]

Hi Gelbermeteor,

These were all sub-offices of existing ministries and agencies (you list their origins yourself). They were not autonomous services in their own right.

All that appears to have happened is that one new autonomous service (Homeland Defence) has been created by transferring in offices from other existing ministries and agencies.

These are in no way equatable with autonomous mass membership national organisations such as the SA, HJ, RAD, etc.

Look through your list. Do you think that Germany did not also have similar offices within its existing ministries? No Immigration and Border control? No customs service? No railway police? Are they too to be counted? Of course not. As with your list, they were subsumed within existing ministries.

Cheers,

Sid.

[GelberMeteor]

Look through your list. Do you think that Germany did not also have similar offices within its existing ministries? No Immigration and Border control? No customs service? No railway police? Are they too to be counted? Of course not. As with your list, they were subsumed within existing ministries.

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi Sid,

it was not me who made a categorical statement in saying: "Look at any democracy in the world and you'll find a minimum of services -- usually just three. Look at any dictatorship and you'll find a plethora: Militias, Presidential Guards, Strategic Forces, etc. etc. "

I think that this is total unstubstantiated, its guessing! Just do what (of all people in this forum) you ask everybody stating something to do: Give evidence! If you come out saying: Well, in the end both system solved the same or similar problems (because they had to) using the same or similar organizational forms, well, than you have proven yourself (or dduff) plainly wrong. Because there just was/is not much of a difference.
Which for me closes this question until finally evidence is produced.

Glück ab! Best wishes Meteor

[sid guttridge]

Hi Meteor,

In case you hadn't noticed, you were just given a long list of autonomous Nazi German paramiltary organisations without US equivalents. You were also given a short list of Iraqi organisations.

In reponse, perhaps you would care to name a lean, mean totalitarian regime without official labour organisations, youth movements, party militias, etc.?

Cheers,

Sid.

[liuanru]

if this question was based mainly on tank kills, with das reich with over 4,000 (as Weidinger wrote), what are the tank kills of the other 6 waffen-ss panzer divisions?)

[Metroid 2]

Let's look at the poll

Leibstandarte 4
Wiking 5
Nord 1
Das Reich 1
Totenkopf 3
12thSS 1
Hohenstaufen