Best division in the Waffen SS??

German SS and Waffen-SS 1923-1945.
TimoWr
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Post by TimoWr » Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:21 am

No problem, mistakes happen. I am thinking hard who he could have been related to but no luck so far.

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Post by panzerschreck1 » Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:58 am

Still i can't work some things out and help me please with this one!

1 Wiking Westland regiment (mostly dutchmen,belgiums)

2 Freiwilligen legioen Nederland (later 23rd ss) brigade size/divisional size.

3 Haen's former division Landstorm (divisional size)

These are just the combat ID ......

Now can someone explain me how to fill up these three divisions with the estimated 20.000 dutch former wss men????

example a division like GD had about 100.000 men going through its ranks from 40-45.... this is of courese a lot , but considering all the replacements for the three dutch wss divisions, isn't 20.000 a little bit on the low side considering there were 3 of them...

And not even counting the NSKK members nor single dutch men choosing for the Wehrmacht

How the .... is 20.000 possible for maintaining 3 divisions on a average
of 1,5/2 years....

I say atleast 50.000 were needed, if not then the number of dutch wss men in all 3 divisions were so low (20.000) that you hardly can call those three dutch, but german with a small dutch nucleus, but somehow i don't believe that...
"Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly."[

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Post by panzerschreck1 » Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:09 am

????????
"Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly."[

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Tom Houlihan
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Post by Tom Houlihan » Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:29 am

PS1, I believe his point was that the math doesn't work out right.

Of course, those figures are assuming that the units were kept at something resembling full strength, which they weren't. Still, were did all the men come from?
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panzerschreck1
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Post by panzerschreck1 » Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:45 am

Ha, ha , AWESOME TOM!

I was sort of reacting on myself.....

No serious , isn't this weird 20.000 men for 3 divisions, too bad though no one can point it out for me....

All the best Tom!
"Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly."[

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Tom Houlihan
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Post by Tom Houlihan » Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:57 am

Oops! Maybe I should look at the posters, not just the posts! :oops:
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Post by Marko » Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:25 am

Hi Paul!

For better understanding here're the numbers of foreigners serving in the SS-Division Wiking:

22.6.1941:
1564/19,377

19.9.1941:
1416/~18,000

1.10.1942:
2109/~16,000

Jul./Aug.1943:
1647 (Estonians = 664)/11,254

:shock: Your typical European volunteers division, ah? :roll:

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Post by panzerschreck1 » Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:53 am

Hi Marko!

Only Westland had dutch and belgian conscripts next to germans of course
but the Nederland and Landstorm were mainly Dutch divisions i guess, but the 20.000 estimated serving in all 2 divisions and one regiment (westland) seems a little bit low in numbers for me.... but maybe i am mistaking....
"Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly."[

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Post by Reb » Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:00 am

ps1

that 20,000 figure doesn't ring true for me either. Yeah, GD probably 100,000 pass through over the war but if we trapped it in a moment in time it would be more like 18-20000. I wonder there fore , if we are not looking at GD one way and the Dutch W-SS another.

I'd wager there were considerable more than 20k over the course of the war.

cheers
Reb

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Post by Marko » Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:08 am

The above figures for Wiking include all division's foreign volunteers (not just Dutch).

Actually Brig.Nederland didn't fare much better, when formed half of the personell was already made up from Volksdeutsche and officer were in greater part Reichsdeutsche, as the war progressed the number of Dutchmen in the unit only dwindeled. Otherwise the unit never numbered more then 7,000 men, like Landstorm never more then 6,000 men.

Nederland's total losses (KIA, WIA, MIA) from 9/43-4/45 were 11,300.

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Post by Rajin Cajun » Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:34 am

Nederland was only a division in name it remained Reinforced Brigade size throughout the whole war. The only reason for the change to division was the NSB didn't want nederland absorbed into some of the heavily battered Ost Front SS Divisions so it was made a division in order to appease the NSB. Nothing like politics running the battlefield.

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Re: Best division in the Waffen SS??

Post by Kelvin » Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:18 am

What wrong with Hohenstaufen and Frundsberg divisions ? Only one person mention the former and few mention the latter. Both these divisions just worse ? Or their names did not have attraction , only old historic names of old dynasty and war hero in 16th century. :(

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Re: Best division in the Waffen SS??

Post by Jan-Hendrik » Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:30 am

Well, both were raised were slowly, due to the lack of personal and material, were good after gaining fighting experience in the Ukraine....but too quickly blooded out in the Normandie in summer 1944...and simply never reached the level of June 1944 again...

But this problem had ALL WSS-Divisions in 1944....in 2nd half of 1944 only Totenkopf and Wiking could reach the level of the "old" Heerespanzerdivisionen....

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: Best division in the Waffen SS??

Post by Kelvin » Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:47 am

?
Jan-Hendrik wrote:Well, both were raised were slowly, due to the lack of personal and material, were good after gaining fighting experience in the Ukraine....but too quickly blooded out in the Normandie in summer 1944...and simply never reached the level of June 1944 again...

But this problem had ALL WSS-Divisions in 1944....in 2nd half of 1944 only Totenkopf and Wiking could reach the level of the "old" Heerespanzerdivisionen....

Jan-Hendrik
Hi, Jan-Hendrik, Why only Totenkopf and Wiking could maintain that level in the second half of 1944 ? How about Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler and Das Reich, Hitler reinforced those division heavily prior to Ardennes offensive. All these four divisions suffered seriously in 1943 and 1944 and all absorbed conscript. Different in quality of men ? I've no ideas, would you mind telling me ?

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Re: Best division in the Waffen SS??

Post by Jan-Hendrik » Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:07 am

Because both LAH & DR were sent into Normandie quite refreshed with nearly everything on personal that was avaiable...without any time to form coherent subunits out of them....thats why both divisions failed in any operation after june 1944 (we have to keep in mind that what came back from the Ukraine in Spring 1944 were just burnt out remants of former divisions).

Both Wiking and TK were never burnt out that drastically...and kept better reinforcements ...

Jan-Hendrik

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