Waffen SS criminal organizations?

[sid guttridge]

Hi Herr Doktor,

What was fknorr's counter question that contains a good point?

Is it the one about the rapes?

No problem. Rape is a crime and the culprits should have been brought to trial.

Interestingly, Hitler may not have been altogether sure that rape was always a bad thing. In his table talk he muses about the benefits of posting prime Germanic Waffen-SS units to areas where the local German stock was deficient.

Cheers,

Sid.

[fknorr]

And on and on. Regarding the last comment, I suppose this means that the British must have been involved in a conspiracy of some kind to cheat those innocent SS butchers (who were just following orders) out of justice, right?

KAPO: Term used in the Nazi concentration camps for a prisoner chosen by the SS to head a work gang made up of other prisoners. Often chosen from the criminal element, the Kapos were treated better and, more often than not, brutalized other prisoners.

You also know that many Foreigners eagerly participated in aktions?

Do these folks fall under the all inclusive term "SS Butchers" HD?

You must belong to the same dumb-ass school of thought as our resident genius "Sid".

Are you masquerading as a "Herr Doktor" instead of something like a "Herr Street Sweeper" or "Herr Fruit Picker" that your limited IQ as shown in your written alleged logic, proves?

Anyone who believes (as guilty as some of these folks were) fairness was extended to these people by having the conquerors be the judge, jury, executioner AND defense counsel of the vanquished is either blind or a retard...I will let you choose which category you fall into.

Hey, you have a nice day.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Guys,

Well, there you have it. The SS/Waffen-SS was a criminal organisation in that its ethos led to an increased likelihood of criminal behaviour by its members. However, most SS members committed no crimes and so the Nuremberg process decreed that mere membership of the Waffen-SS was not criminal.

Cheers,

Sid.

[haen1]

Hi Guys,

Well, there you have it. The SS/Waffen-SS was a criminal organisation in that its ethos led to an increased likelihood of criminal behaviour by its members. However, most SS members committed no crimes and so the Nuremberg process decreed that mere membership of the Waffen-SS was not criminal.

Cheers,

Sid.

I need to look this up, but I think you are mistaken Sid.
The only part of the Waffen SS that was not indicated as "Criminals" were the Reiter SS.
Why ? Because a great deal of them were Nobilityand / or "Power-houses" figures. Like prminent bankers and so. Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands was one of them before he married the Crown princess and beame a Netherlander.
If you have other documentation proving me wrong I will concede that i am wrong. Regards, HN.

[AAA]

Last para of IMT tribunal judgement from the AHF forum "Judgment on the SS as a Criminal Organization" http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=15476

The SS was utilized for purposes which were criminal under the Charter involving the persecution and extermination of the Jews, brutalities and killings in concentration camps, excesses in the administration of occupied territories, the administration of the slave labor program, and the mistreatment and murder of prisoners of war. The Defendant Kaltenbrunner was a member of the SS implicated in these activities. In dealing with the SS the Tribunal includes all persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS, including the members of the Allgemeine SS, members of the Waffen-SS, members of the SS Totenkopfverbaende, and the members of any of the different police forces who were members of the SS. The Tribunal does not include the so-called SS riding units. The Sicherheitsdienst des Reichsfuehrer SS (commonly known as the SD) is dealt with in the Tribunal's judgment on the Gestapo and SD.

The Tribunal declares to be criminal within the meaning of the Charter the group composed of those persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS as enumerated in the preceding paragraph, who became or remained members of the organization with knowledge that it was being used for the commission of acts declared criminal by Article 6 of the Charter, or who were personally implicated as members of the organization in the commission of such crimes, excluding, however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes. The basis of this finding is the participation of the organization in war crimes and crimes against humanity connected with the war; this group declared criminal cannot include, therefore, persons who had ceased to belong to the organizations enumerated in the preceding paragraph prior to 1 September 1939.

[fknorr]

Last para of IMT tribunal judgement from the AHF forum "Judgment on the SS as a Criminal Organization" http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=15476

The SS was utilized for purposes which were criminal under the Charter involving the persecution and extermination of the Jews, brutalities and killings in concentration camps, excesses in the administration of occupied territories, the administration of the slave labor program, and the mistreatment and murder of prisoners of war. The Defendant Kaltenbrunner was a member of the SS implicated in these activities. In dealing with the SS the Tribunal includes all persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS, including the members of the Allgemeine SS, members of the Waffen-SS, members of the SS Totenkopfverbaende, and the members of any of the different police forces who were members of the SS. The Tribunal does not include the so-called SS riding units. The Sicherheitsdienst des Reichsfuehrer SS (commonly known as the SD) is dealt with in the Tribunal's judgment on the Gestapo and SD.

The Tribunal declares to be criminal within the meaning of the Charter the group composed of those persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS as enumerated in the preceding paragraph, who became or remained members of the organization with knowledge that it was being used for the commission of acts declared criminal by Article 6 of the Charter, or who were personally implicated as members of the organization in the commission of such crimes, excluding, however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes. The basis of this finding is the participation of the organization in war crimes and crimes against humanity connected with the war; this group declared criminal cannot include, therefore, persons who had ceased to belong to the organizations enumerated in the preceding paragraph prior to 1 September 1939.

Thanks AAA

[sid guttridge]

Hi AAA,

Excellent. I shall print it off. There is no substitute for original sources.

Many thanks,

Sid.

[B Hellqvist]

I do not know why Speer was tried at all.

Considering your display of knowledge in other areas of WW2, it is remarkable that you don't know why Speer was tried. He was responsible for the use of forced labour in the Third Reich, including foreign nationals and concentration camp prisoners. He claimed ignorance of the maltreatment of (esp.) Jewish KZ inmates in the armaments production, many of whom perished. Some of the Nürnberg Trials transcripts cover this: http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tg ... 9-02.shtml

Regarding your tone: in another post, you claimed that you know you are an a**hole. How about pulling that pineapple out of it and adopt a more civil tone? There are other fora for you to vent your anger and frustration; by ranting like you do, you poison the atmosphere, which will eventually make you banned like other disruptive persons. It might come as a surprise to you, but a less irascible attitude might actually make people listen to your arguments and even win you friends here. Now, wouldn't that be nice for a change?

[Herr Doktor]

Wise counsel, Überhauptnichtsführer. I agree.

HD

[fknorr]

Can you please tell me which countries that did not use foriegn/POW labor. It was said that he did insure to varying degrees that the labor he employed was adequetly fed and housed (although not for their well being per se but to ensure "proper" work force for production.

From what I understand, @ Nuremburg the defendants were all charged w/four counts, two of which he was found not guilty of. He was not put to death, that has to say something about his over-all "guilt".

FYI, even if my posts were ooozing venom or covered in dog poo, the truth is still there to read. It is whether one chooses to disregard because of it, I care not.

[sid guttridge]

Hi fknorr,

Why should anyone have to wade through "venom", "dog poo" or any other unnececessary diversion to get to the facts? The facts should speak for themselves. Anything that detracts from the facts being allowed to speak for themselves is a bad thing.

As I understand it, the use of POW labour was not illegal per se. However, the use of POW labour in war industries was. Thus they could, for example, be used on farms, but not in armaments factories.

Cheers,

Sid.

[fknorr]

Facts are facts my man...doesn't matter where you may find the truth, only that it is there.

As I understand it, the use of POW labour was not illegal per se. However, the use of POW labour in war industries was. Thus they could, for example, be used on farms, but not in armaments factories.
.

Gee, that does not sound too much like an "allied" double standard...you cannot use POW labor for war industries but you can use them for farm labor which will free up people to work in the war industry....

You see how silly that argument is, right?

[sid guttridge]

Hi fknorr,

Actually, it is not an Allied "double standard" because Germany had signed up to the same international conventions.

Now that you have discovered that "facts are facts", I very much look forward to you using some.

Cheers,

Sid.

[fknorr]

Do you live anywhere close to me and/or travel?

I would certainly like to discuss some things w/you in person.

This last post by you and the last in the other thread we are sharing are similar to all the others...not much content.

[fknorr]

Hi fknorr,

Actually, it is not an Allied "double standard" because Germany had signed up to the same international conventions.

Now that you have discovered that "facts are facts", I very much look forward to you using some.

Cheers,

Sid.

It IS a double standard if you prosecute the vanquished for war crimes the same (similar) things you are doing.

No wonder I get bent out of shape here...you are a complete nit-wit.

Hopefully you have not been allowed to breed...the world needs no more "Sids".