SS Troops Shooting At Surrendering Heer Soldiers At Falaise

Wolfkin · Post by **Wolfkin** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:37 am

Hello all!

How many of you have heard this story? Unfortunately, I believe that this may be one of those myths taken as truth. I have found this story in several Allied publications of the Falaise Pocket battles but interestingly, they all seem to state the source as the same "account of a soldier who saw it happen". Apparently many Heer soldiers were prevented from surrendering by "SS troops patrolling the area in an armoured halftrack".

Now, we all know the chaos and confusion of the Falaise Pocket battles and how most German troops, Heer and Waffen SS, were just trying to fight their way out. I seriously doubt that they would waste time shooting at their own troops. Also, I have not found any acount of this on the German side. How did this veteran know that it was "SS troops" in the "Armoured halftrack"? And if so, from which SS unit? And can he be sure that they were actually shooting at their own troops?

I have read accounts of the Leibstandarte, Das Reich, Hitlerjugend, Hohenstaufen and Frundsberg in Normandy and really doubt that these units would have wasted time shooting at their own troops. They had better things to do like trying to break out of a pocket! Can anyone provide any information that might be able to substantiate the information from this veteran?

Thank you in advance!

Cheers,

Wolfkin

Gesetz · Post by **Gesetz** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:18 pm

I know a situation where a Hitlerjugend tank crew killed 2 Whermacht soldiers. A tank crew needed ammo and fuel and two Whermacht soldiers told them ot leave, incase the allies were to arrive, they didnt want to be caught with SS there, so the tank commander took an MP40 and open fired on both of them.

I wouldn't be surprised if it happened where soldiers would kill fellow soldiers by purpose, after all some were fanatics!

Piet Duits · Post by **Piet Duits** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:10 am

Hi,

I often read accounts of depots crewed by very bureaucratic nice weather-soldiers who wanted to do everything according to regulations. Even though the germans were on the run, or tactical retreating (it's all in the way you want to call it).
As a result, many valuable resources were lost (an example from the latest biography on Erwin Rommel comes to mind where is stated that on the way back to Tunesia, Rommel's troops passed by large amounts of fuel from the Marine/Luftwaffe which could have saved the war in Africa in favour of the germans).

Back to the topic: often these nice weather-soldiers tried to prevent frontline troops in getting the much needed supplies.
They were more anxious to destroy their supplies, then to give it to the troops...
This was one of the big failures in the german army: too many rules, too many wannabee-kings in their domain, troubling the already noisy lines of supply from Germany to the frontlines.

If in such cases those wannabee-kings were shot by worried frontline commanders, I can only say that it would not surprise me.

As a matter of fact, I know of an example myself too. It really happened to me!
When I was on a supply convoy back to Zagreb back in 1994, I had specific orders from the Section S4 (Supply) of my battalion, to get as much candles as I could get. Fuel was scarce, and the candles were needed for the light.
In Zagreb, the responsible senior supply NCO was convinced of the fact I was trying to trick him. He said that it was too early for X-mas to get candles. And there was no such thing as lack of fuel!
His corporal however solved the problem after this stubborn NCO left, and gave me the supplies I needed.
This example is a good example how nice weather soldiers react to soldiers in the field, needing certain supplies.

I hope you guys understand what I'm trying to say.

Wolfkin · Post by **Wolfkin** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:40 pm

Hello Piet!

I am sorry it took me so long to reply. I actually read your response a few days after you posted it. I took some time to think about what you said. I then failed to respond until now.

Anyways, I just wanted to say that I understand what you are trying to say and thank you for the excellent response! Even if very late, better late then never I guess, eh?

Cheers,

Wolfkin

Holmer · Post by **Holmer** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 10:19 am

Gesetz wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if it happened where soldiers would kill fellow soldiers by purpose, after all some were fanatics!

This happens all the time in modern armies, including peace time. How many stories have we heard about soldiers in Vietnam fragging their commanders....Canadian soldiers poisined their NCO while in the former Yugoslavia during peacekeeping duites. They felt he was taking too many risks with their safety. And so on. Fanatical or not, soldiers kill their own for various reasons.

Regards,

Holmer

Will · Post by **Will** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:21 am

Theres a plethora of stories of this nature batting about in alot of historical accounts not just the falaise pocket,

It is no secret that the grunts of the wehrmacht hated the waffen SS whom they considered rightly or wrongly to be nothing short of animals in human form, but I would have thought that the soldiers of the heer would have been alot better disciplined than to open fire on thier own, no matter what the circumstances.

as I said there are tons of these rumours floating around of this sort of thing. and it can be really hard to figure which are true or no.

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:19 am

It is no secret that the grunts of the wehrmacht hated the waffen SS whom they considered rightly or wrongly to be nothing short of animals in human form, but I would have thought that the soldiers of the heer would have been alot better disciplined than to open fire on thier own, no matter what the circumstances.

Hello!

I would be very interested where you heard/read this?

\Christoph

Will · Post by **Will** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:12 am

In just about every account of I've ever read of the war as seen through the eyes of the men of the heer, they despised the SS for two reasons firstly because of the reputation for brutality and murder which often preceded them. and secondley because as the war dragged on and supplies became increasingley scarce the SS were usually to be found traipsing about in new equipment and abundantley supplied, whereas the Heer usually had to make do with what was availiable which is to say not much!

As I said I am no expert on the subject of the SS and I could well be mistaken, (although I doubt it

)

P.s if you were wanting me to qoute from a source unfortunatley that is not possible as I no longer have my collection pertaining to this subject (it's a long story and frankly I can't be bothered) and so I am having to rely mainly on memeory until I can rebuild my collection Sorry, but there it is! see you on another thread.

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:31 pm

Will wrote:In just about every account of I've ever read of the war as seen through the eyes of the men of the heer, they despised the SS for two reasons firstly because of the reputation for brutality and murder which often preceded them. and secondley because as the war dragged on and supplies became increasingley scarce the SS were usually to be found traipsing about in new equipment and abundantley supplied, whereas the Heer usually had to make do with what was availiable which is to say not much!

As I said I am no expert on the subject of the SS and I could well be mistaken, (although I doubt it )

P.s if you were wanting me to qoute from a source unfortunatley that is not possible as I no longer have my collection pertaining to this subject (it's a long story and frankly I can't be bothered) and so I am having to rely mainly on memeory until I can rebuild my collection Sorry, but there it is! see you on another thread.

Well, Ok thanks for the clarification

\Christoph

Timo · Post by **Timo** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:25 pm

Will wrote:and secondley because as the war dragged on and supplies became increasingley scarce the SS were usually to be found traipsing about in new equipment and abundantley supplied, whereas the Heer usually had to make do with what was availiable which is to say not much!

Perhaps you should perform a forum search using the search function because this myth has been debunked in several old threads.

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:43 pm

Timo wrote:
Will wrote:and secondley because as the war dragged on and supplies became increasingley scarce the SS were usually to be found traipsing about in new equipment and abundantley supplied, whereas the Heer usually had to make do with what was availiable which is to say not much!
Perhaps you should perform a forum search using the search function because this myth has been debunked in several old threads.

But Timo he has read it in "just about every account" and he "doubts that he is wrong".

\Christoph

Timo · Post by **Timo** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:46 pm

Yes, why should we trust your primary sources which clearly showed us that the Waffen-SS and Heer received both weapons and other equipment through the same channels.

PaulW · Post by **PaulW** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 2:53 pm

It is also said that Heer soldiers destroyed WSS units that refused to surrender at the end of WW2 by using heavy artillery, after permission from the (western) Allies.
Anyone else heard this one? I can't rember my refs.

Muumin · Post by **Muumin** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:44 am

The sovjets regularly machine gunned retreating soldiers. Even unarmed soldiers (they didnt always have enough guns to arm everyone).

Will · Post by **Will** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:52 am

Excuse me? who do you think you are christoph? who died and made you the fount of all knowledge? I don't have any time for anoraks and even less for a smart-ass!

If you can't conduct yourself with a modicum of sense of humour than screw you O.K? as a matter of fact I said I could be wrong that does not preclude the possibilty of my having been mistaken maybe you should take extra english lessons and while your there get a life! this is a hobby it is not a away of life in future don't bother replying to my posts you are not worth talking to!

P.S as I said I may have been wrong, that was the impression I got of the wehrmachts view towards the armed SS.

Feldgrau.net

SS Troops Shooting At Surrendering Heer Soldiers At Falaise

SS Troops Shooting At Surrendering Heer Soldiers At Falaise

Maybe the learned from the sovjets?