SS vets hold anniversary celebration in Estonia

Driggs · Post by **Driggs** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:17 pm

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/st ... ory=538802

Craig Soward · Post by **Craig Soward** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:33 pm

An interesting article, especially now that Estonia is part of the EU.

AAA · Post by **AAA** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:17 am

Written by a correspondant with byline Moscow, not Tallinn.

As for the article :

Jewish groups pointed out that Estonian volunteers in the SS were responsible for the almost complete annihilation of the country's Jewish population during the Second World War.

Sigh. First, just plain factually wrong as discussed on Feldgrau elsewhere. Second, which Jewish groups? Of course, the only offended "Jewish groups" (plural) quoted was one (singular), from Russia and not Estonia.

So, one wonders what the Israeli press is writing about this 'outrage'...hmm, almost nothing. Except this, from the Jerusalem Post :
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 8397702269

The unveiling of the SS monument may serve to escalate neo-Nazism and anti-Semitism there, said Russia's Chief Rabbi Berl Lazar, Pravda reported.

Lazar said that the unveiling of monuments to Nazis is, first of all, an EU problem because Estonia has now joined the EU.

Moreover, Lazar told Pravda that the unveiling of a monument to an SS officer is an Israeli problem because Israel fights any manifestations of Nazism and anti-Semitism in line with its state policy.

Fascinating. Clearly, the Russian government is outraged, via proxy of course.

While we're here :
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking ... -6871r.htm

Estonian SS celebration decried by Jews

TALLIN, Ethiopia, July 7 (UPI) -- Jewish groups in Estonia and Russia demanded answers Wednesday as to why a parade by Estonian Nazi SS veterans was allowed in the capital, Tallin.

Spot the obvious typo

Simon · Post by **Simon** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 5:05 pm

Besides the shifting of the earth plates making eastern Europe now part of east Africa

I thought the interesting thing was, that the Israeli paper mentioned them serving for the WH, where as all the others brought up the N word almost straight away

Craig Soward · Post by **Craig Soward** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:16 pm

No real surprise Simon, is it (the use of the N word)? Ah, the Western Media......

AAA · Post by **AAA** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:39 am

Theres a fine follow up analysis of this business at Radio Free Europe http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/20 ... 6c78d.html

greenhorn · Post by **greenhorn** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:16 am

Obviously no one can condone a celebration of KZ guards or extermination commados, but we should not prevent anyone from honouring their war dead.

Some people should be very careful about how they complain, as they frequently endorse and carry out collective punishments on civilian population, bulldoze homes, wall people in etc........ You'd think we were living in the 40's.

Holmer · Post by **Holmer** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:14 pm

greenhorn wrote: Some people should be very careful about how they complain, as they frequently endorse and carry out collective punishments on civilian population, bulldoze homes, wall people in etc........ You'd think we were living in the 40's.

Completely agree. I used to be a supporter, but I know see the other side of the fence. Funny how they scream bloody murder when someone spray paints a swastika, but they turn a blind eye to what is happening in their back yards.

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:30 pm

At the risk of sounding facetious - if the Estonian SS wiped out all the Jews in Estonia - how can there be a problem with anti-semitism (or pro-semitism for that matter) subsequently?!

I wish these journalists would learn how to frame a piece - but that may be asking too much given the poor quality colleges that award the diplomas to these second raters.

There are several avenues here which I have not explored so if someone knows the answer please post it. Specifically - where the Baltic states anti-semitic in general, or did they hate Russians who happened to be Jews?

cheers
Reb

Craig Soward · Post by **Craig Soward** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:02 am

Reb,

I have read (cant remember the book off the top of my head) that (especially) the Einzatsgruppen recruited heavily in the Baltic states due to an underlying anti semitism that existed there.

They greeted the Germans as liberators against Bolshevism + gave them the opportunity to rid their villages of the Jews too (they were none too fond of the Jews, so it was said).

I also find it interesting (like a few fellow posters above) how in 2004 they seem to be able to do what they like to the Palestinians, without the USA or Britain stepping in. THE OLD STORY OF ONE RULE FOR SOME & ANOTHER FOR EVERYBODY ELSE!

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:27 am

Craig

I agree with you about Israel. I was a long time supporter when they were the underdogs. No more. Their political lobby in the US is such that they are able to use our military as their proxy army. Don't like that a bit. Plus they are a socialist economy propped up artificially by US dollars. That seems ridiculous to me.

That said - I don't blame Israel for fighting for existance - but I wouldn't want to be a Palestinian looking at Israeli soldiers either. Fortunately, I don't have to be in charge of what happens over there - I just wish both sides would come down off their high horses, shake hands and get on with life.

cheers
Reb

Kunnar · Post by **Kunnar** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 5:04 am

Reb wrote:

There are several avenues here which I have not explored so if someone knows the answer please post it. Specifically - where the Baltic states anti-semitic in general, or did they hate Russians who happened to be Jews?

cheers
Reb

Hi!

I can't say about Latvia and Lithuania for sure, but Estonia was'nt anti-semitic in general. Just big part from officers ofNKVD and "destruction bataillons" happend to be jews. And they were later killed as communists, not as jews. So i guess we can say that "they hate soviets, who happened to be jews". One veteran of estonian sipo told to me one interesting story: after the war he was in DP-lager in sweden and one young jewish girl was there too. When this girl heard that there are estonians, she embraced them and said that she have only good memorys about estonians who treated her well during wartime, when she was in estonia. Later comes out that girl was in wartime in camp of Jägala.

Regards
Kunnar

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 6:12 am

Interesting - Thanks Kunnar. I'd often wondered about that - the whole business of counting Jewish losses apart from their parent nationality often confuses things.

cheers
Reb

Kunnar · Post by **Kunnar** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:30 am

Craig Soward wrote:Reb,

I have read (cant remember the book off the top of my head) that (especially) the Einzatsgruppen recruited heavily in the Baltic states due to an underlying anti semitism that existed there.

They greeted the Germans as liberators against Bolshevism + gave them the opportunity to rid their villages of the Jews too (they were none too fond of the Jews, so it was said).

I also find it interesting (like a few fellow posters above) how in 2004 they seem to be able to do what they like to the Palestinians, without the USA or Britain stepping in. THE OLD STORY OF ONE RULE FOR SOME & ANOTHER FOR EVERYBODY ELSE!

I believe that baltic volunteers joined with SD/SiPo not consequently from anti-semitism, but because this was one from few chances to fight somehow against bolshevism. And i don't believe that local estonians (or latvians or lithuanians) gived out to germans innocent jews. They gived out those who were co-worked with commies, no matter what ethnic group they belonged. Of course there was incidents when some jealous and evil neighbour lied about his neighbour to the police etc., but this was rather exception then rule. Prewar jewish rabbi in estonia survived the war for example. He was hided by estonians at germans.

Regards
Kunnar

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:05 am

AAA wrote:Theres a fine follow up analysis of this business at Radio Free Europe http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/20 ... 6c78d.html

Analysis: Estonian War Veterans Provoke Russian Reaction
By Michael Shafir

...where M. Shafir writes:
"Some 1,500 Estonian World War II veterans, many of whom served in the German Waffen-SS during the war, gathered in Tallinn on 6 July to celebrate the 60th anniversary of battles against Soviet troops. /---/

In 2001, the Estonian International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity established that the 36th Estonian Division of the Waffen SS participated in the execution of thousands of Jews in the Belarusian town of Novogrudok in August 1942 and in other atrocities. The division was apparently set up on the personal orders of Adolf Hitler. /---/

Yet none of the war veterans have been prosecuted for their crimes in Estonia. "

In fact, the commission was only able to present some circumstantial evidence in the Novogrudok case, far from establishing the fact. It makes one wonder though whether the use of wrong unit names ("36th Est. Division of W-SS" which never existed, instead of the 36th Police Battalion which neither belonged to SS nor was set up on personal orders of A.H.) by the RFE/RL journalist in this piece of "fine analysis" was intentional or not.

In short, very sloppy treatment of facts from Dr. Michael Shafir who, according to the RFE/RL website, is "coordinator for Europe with RFE/RL Online and editor of the "RFE/RL East European Perspectives." He was born in Romania and received his Ph.D in Political Science from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem in 1981. He is the author of two books and over 300 articles on Communist and postcommunist affairs as well as on anti-Semitism published in professional journals and collective volumes."

Feldgrau.net

SS vets hold anniversary celebration in Estonia

SS vets hold anniversary celebration in Estonia

No real surprise!