Waffen ss Panzergrenadier and Panzers vs Wermarcht

German SS and Waffen-SS 1923-1945.
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Christoph Awender
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Post by Christoph Awender » Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:36 am

Hello again

Here a document (reproduced for better viewing by me) that shows the planing of replacements/refreshments/formations in 1943. Looking through many of such documents never showed a favorism for the W-SS which it should if the oppinion of some people would be right.
It shows that the planing was first done by a Heer authority and showed a quite balanced planing.

\Christoph
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/dokumen ... al1943.gif

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Nibelung
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Post by Nibelung » Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:39 am

Interesting stuff Christoph. Thanks.

best,
Nibelung
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Post by Freiritter » Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:08 pm

Hello,

So, basically, the Heer used the Heerestruppen to augment the subordinate divisions, while the Waffen-SS divisions had to provide for themselves. As for the contention that Waffen-SS divisions were better supplied was more due to the fact of losses than to political favoritism. If I'm reading the thread right. Christoph is right, the early Waffen-SS and SS-VT formations had to make do with captured equipment, since it was the Heer that had priority. ( I remembered my early WWII research. )

The common notion that the Waffen-SS were these blond haired and blue eyed supermen riding Tigers into battle were, for the most part, propaganda and post war fascination in the Western nations. True, the first rate Waffen-SS divisions like Leibstandarte, Das Reich and Wiking did perform well in combat. But, not all Waffen-SS troops were of good quality and equipment. The common image of Waffen-SS troops, in the U.S. at least, is based on records of the first rate Waffen-SS divisions and frankly both Hollywood and the Waffen-SS mystique built up around them.

Cordially,

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Post by corderex » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:40 pm

This discussion has focused so far on details. Perhaps some basic questions should be asked:

1. Who made the decision to upgrade the Waffen SS brigades to Panzergrenadier Divisions in mid 1942 and to Panzer Divisions in mid 1943? Had the Heer any saying on the matter? Did the Heer approve of these decisions? Did the Heer sanctioned the forming of corps made up entirely and exclusively of Waffen SS divisions?

2. If the Waffen SS was supplied through regular Heer channels: what authority in the Heer decided that the Waffen SS divisions had to be provided with its own heavy panzer company and its own assault gun detachment by the summer of 1943, when that was not standard procedure for the other first-line Panzer and Panzergrenadier Divisions (exception made of the GD)?

In short, who? and why?

I am asking these questions because I really ignore the answers.

regards,

corderex

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Christoph Awender
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Post by Christoph Awender » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:52 pm

corderex wrote:....I am asking these questions because I really ignore the answers.

regards,

corderex
Hä so you will ignore answers given to these questions or what does this mean?

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Post by corderex » Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:57 pm

Hi Cristoph.

It means that I stumbled on one of those tricksy "false friends", and that you just wiped the floor with my poor English semantics this time...Well, it had to happen sooner or later I guess. :D

Here is what I wanted to say:

"I am asking these questions because I really don't know the answers."

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Christoph Awender
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Post by Christoph Awender » Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:07 am

. Who made the decision to upgrade the Waffen SS brigades to Panzergrenadier Divisions in mid 1942 and to Panzer Divisions in mid 1943? Had the Heer any saying on the matter? Did the Heer approve of these decisions? Did the Heer sanctioned the forming of corps made up entirely and exclusively of Waffen SS divisions?
This was demanded/ordered by the RFSS in cooperation with Hitler. Of course the Heer didn´t have any decision in that matter. Why should it? The SS wasn´t asked also when the Heer formed new divisions.
If the Waffen SS was supplied through regular Heer channels: what authority in the Heer decided that the Waffen SS divisions had to be provided with its own heavy panzer company and its own assault gun detachment by the summer of 1943, when that was not standard procedure for the other first-line Panzer and Panzergrenadier Divisions (exception made of the GD)?
Corderex, I must say that we have to come to one decision when we discuss together. You have to believe me when I say something because I don´t post anything without knowing. Why the IF in your first sentence??
The W-SS WAS DEFINATELY supplied through Heer channels because the W-SS was operational and in supply matters subordinated to OKH. The Kdo.Stab RFSS kept command over personnel, disciplinary and training means.
That the W-SS divisions received an company had nothing to do with supply but with organisation and this was usually ordered by Hitler. But this is an very "non-saying" argument because where is the difference that Heerestruppen are attached for operations temporarily or if they are organic? Not a real difference so why the constant focus on this short term occurance???

\Christoph

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Post by corderex » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:50 am

You have to believe me when I say something because I don´t post anything without knowing. Why the IF in your first sentence??
IF is as Conditional Clause. In English, you can use this word to express a cause/consequence relationship between two phrases in a sentence.
Example: If the weather is nice, we usually go swimming.
It has nothing to do with credibility issues, unless I had said something like "If the Waffen SS was supplied through regular Heer channels, as you say, then how come etc. etc. etc....?"
In that case, you may suggest that I was putting your comments in doubt.

See Cristoph, I am not putting your credibility in doubt. I am just challenging your conclusions. I think there is nothing wrong with that.
This was demanded/ordered by the RFSS in cooperation with Hitler
Demanded/ordered? Who received these orders emanating from RFSS?

[/quote]

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Post by Christoph Awender » Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:28 pm

Demanded/ordered? Who received these orders emanating from RFSS?
The Kommandostab RFSS and the other SS authorities received these orders to build new formations. They passed these orders down to the various Befehlshaber and other commands (varies and depends on the unit)
The RFSS always tried with all means to expand his influence and power. No month went by without RFSS demanding something be it new units, exclusive rights for recruitments from certain organisations etc... etc...
Hitler had to say yes or no and in certain matters like forming new units etc... RFSS was not able to order something without Hitlers permission.
That is what is meant by "Demanded/ordered". Which orders were then definately given by which authority varies so we would have to look into each decision who finally brought out the order.

\Christoph

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Re: There was no "Arno Giesen" Waffen SS Tank Ace

Post by Doug Nash » Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:35 am

"SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Arno Giesen" is a fraud, never served in the Waffen-SS, never served aboard a Panzer and definitely did not knock out 111 tanks while serving in the "Das Reich" Panzer Division. Background: A generation ago, the name "Arno Giesen" would have been instantly recognizable to anyone studying the Waffen-SS in the early 1980s. A man who touted himself as the commander of the "last SS tank in Vienna," Giesen convinced many of us (including junior armor officers such as myself) that he was the real deal. He was a popular speaker on the US Army Professional Development circuit until he was finally exposed for what he was - a fraud, but not after maligning a number of genuine Waffen SS veteans, such as Fritz Langanke and Ernst Barkmann. Here's a very recent article by his son, former Army Captain Bo Friesen, who wrote about his father's colorful career as a storyteller and a textbook example of German "Stolen Valor."
http://fathercodersoldierspy.com/?page_id=9
Abbott: This sure is a beautiful forest.
Costello: Too bad you can't see it for all those trees!

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