German Navy's Aircraft Carrier

[Srgt Rock]

Paul-
You are so right to think about the greater use the Kreigsmarine could have gotten out of the AR196. I've got a couple extra facts for you and then will add my own thoughts.

First of all, by 39 the AR196 was using the BMW 132k which was rated at 960hp. The wing cannons were only the mg ff and there was only one 7.9mm machine gun on the right side of the engine compartment. Finally, the AR196 airframe was designed to withstand the stress of dive bombing!

A very interesting comparison can be made between the dauntless SBD dive bomber used in the USN and the AR196. With retractable landing gear the only difference is the placement of the horizonal stabalizer.

Finally, the AR196 was sold to RLM as a light fighter! Tiriptz used her 196's to fight off attacks by british carrier planes in MAR 42. I think some minor changes could have been to the 196's airframe to make it a better fighter. The wing cannons could have been upgraded to the mg ff/m which had a greater rate of fire and less tendency to jam and it would appear that a second mg could have been placed on the left side of the engine compartment. Next, the 196 could have been turned into a one seater plane thus saving weight. That could have been a field modifacation on board ship. Remove the seat and any other easily removable items from the observer's compartment and place a rear canipy(NOT SPELLED RIGHT). A counter weight could have been put in place near the tail to help achieve a weight balance. I think these changes could have allowed the field modified 196 to achieve speeds of over 200mph and it would have had a greater climb rate due to the reduced weight. (One further modifacation could have been to clip the wings as in the Japanese modifacation of the Zero A2M -> A3M which would have reduced drag, increased roll rate and increased speed)

Last point, any of the faster Hansa line ships could have been equiped with catipult firing over the bow and an aircraft crane mounted just forward of the bridge and the Kreigsmarine would have had a seaplane carrier! (Leipiz's catipult Scheer's removed aircraft crane)

[Paul Lakowski]

Paul-
You are so right to think about the greater use the Kreigsmarine could have gotten out of the AR196. I've got a couple extra facts for you and then will add my own thoughts.

First of all, by 39 the AR196 was using the BMW 132k which was rated at 960hp. The wing cannons were only the mg ff and there was only one 7.9mm machine gun on the right side of the engine compartment. Finally, the AR196 airframe was designed to withstand the stress of dive bombing!
)Finally, the AR196 was sold to RLM as a light fighter! Tiriptz used her 196's to fight off attacks by british carrier planes in MAR 42.

I also read about them shooting down Beaufighters and Hampton bombers?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/184037 ... =&n=283155


Thanks for the information. One ammendment. The BMW 132K nine-cylinder radial air-cooled engine, rated at 960hp at take-off and 820hp at 3280 ft.

http://www.feldgrau.com/ar196.htm

The reaon BMW upgrade would be a step up would be that its only 10% bigger than BMW-132 and thus could be balanced easly into the seaplane and it achieved about 1000hp at altitude, allowing for a 20% increase in power. As a seaplane of course the drag from the floats increases with speed so it may be that only 1/2 to 3/4 of that increase could translate into speed. So it might be more realistic to conclude a BMW-323 /Ar-196 would do ~220 mph, and 250-260mph with the methane/water boost by 1942.

It might be possible by 1942 to have a pure fighter version ready with shortened single seater more stream lined cockpit to off set the larger and more massive BMW-801 engine. Such a massive increase in power should allow top speeds in the 280-290mph regioin, like the Japanese Zero seaplane. With Methane/water boost that could top 310mph by 1942/43? To attain higher speeds would require a redesigned wing which would adversely effect low speed performance. I read that Ar-196 could launch at 70mph ,while the catapults of the time could reach 95-100mph @ 2.5-5ton throw weights, so their is some room for redesign.

How could you increase speed beyond the 300 mph level without increasing low speed stalls speed s beyond the 70-100 mph region? I wonder if retractable floatation pontoons was beyond the technology of the period cause that could have boosted the top speed of the above estimates by ~40mph.

Last point, any of the faster Hansa line ships could have been equiped with catipult firing over the bow and an aircraft crane mounted just forward of the bridge and the Kreigsmarine would have had a seaplane carrier! (Leipiz's catipult Scheer's removed aircraft crane

I was thinking along those lines too for an early 1930s seaplane carrier....call it a 'Auxiliary Seaplane Cruiser' so as not to offend Treaty terms

German ship building industry of the early 1930s crashed from 3 million tons orders to 1/2 million tons after the great depression. One way to counter this would be to establish a credit exchange with these companies to release old second hand merchant/tankers for government usage to inject credit into these companies to build modern replacements. Such arrangements were historically done in 1931-33 period . What you'd want to do would be to replace small craft production [Schnellboote’ & ‘Minenräumboot’ ] for purchase and conversion of auxiliary cruiser and modify some to carrier configurations.

Those small warboats were probably 1-1.5 Million Rm a piece and the cost of converting a merchant into a Auxiliary Cruiser was 1/2 million RM. Give the companies 1 million to purchase each older tankers [ 1/4 purchase price?] and this allows 1/2 million tons of new shipping to be ordered for the shipping companies and further million tons of conversion work. It would also release upto 120 merchants of all shapes and sizes for auxiliary warship usage.

Such a program would take 4-6 years to complete so could not be finished until the late 1930s , which gives time to recruite the needed ~ 50,000 more sailors [ 100,000 more personnel total]. This accelerated training could be expidited by converting naval support warships like 'Grille' and the newly built fleet tenders, into training ships combined with recruitment diverted from the Heer in the late 1930s.This gives the basis for a defensive fleet parralleling similar moves in the Luftwaffe/Heer to fit into the general "Armee de Conventure" strategy.

The weaponary for such auxiliary warships would come from the light flak built for the 130 small warcraft in the 1930s and the heavy weapons from the early 1930s conversions of the Reichmarine fleet combined with the weaponary made surplus from the scrapping of the remainats of the WW-I 'Hochseeflotte'. Historically this amounted to something like 400 x 6" guns and hundreds of 4" guns and 20" torpedo tubes plus something like 800 x 88mm guns [not the flak guns]. These would end up being mounted along the emergency auxiliary fleet Raeder erected at the start of the war followed by the Atlantic Wall through out WW-II ,so a program to harvest them for Auxiliary warship roles makes emminate sence.

If the production included 30 seaplane carriers and 70 auxiliary cruisers, each could get 4 x old 6" guns and 1/2 dozen light flak. The auxiliary Cruiser versions would also get 4 x 20" torpedo tubes each, while the auxiliary seaplane cruisers would get the catapults and recovery cranes from the historic production. This included 1/2 dozen heavy heinkel K-5 catapults and dozen 20 ton recovery cranes built for Lufthansa catapult ships and commondeered during the war and the 2 dozen regular catapults built for the Reichmarine/Kriegsmarine Cruisers and battleships and luxury liners.

BTW I thought there were only two luxury liners with catapults , how many were their?

By wartime Germany had 70-80 heavy torpedo float plane bombers namely the He-59 and new He-115 . These could be stored roughly 8 per tanker size ship, plus a Heinkel catapult and a couple of heavy recovery cranes. If such ships operated with the Koln cruisers and Torpedoboot escorts they could form 1/2 dozen battlegroups operated from the Baltic and moving out into the North Sea and expanding to cover the Altantic wall and from Norway to the Bay of Biscay. The He-115 had a radius of 800km with torpedos so they could dominate the approaches to the UK from early in the war.

The two dozen Auxiliary Seaplane Crusiers would each get the bulk of the remaining 160-180 scout seaplanes roughly, He-60 He-114 & Ar-196. But the seaplane version of the Ar-95 would make sense as an alternative since it was a torpedo seaplane which could have been built instead of the poor He-114 torpedo seaplane and replaced the He-60 as well.

Each of these Auxiliary Seaplane Crusiers would operate with several Auxiliary Cruisers as escort and have a flottila of Uboats subordinated to them. In that capacity these Auxiliary Cruisers would also double as tenders for the Uboats, allowing the groups to operate into the NAtlantic and steal back into the waters around the UK to interdict merchant traffic and even mount combined attacks on convoys. The Seaplanes would provide scouting allowing the ASC to coordinate Uboat Wolfpack attacks with Torpedo seaplane attacks, while the auxiliary Cruisers provide local escorting and security.

The small fast attack industry could still be utilised to refine a tiny versions of the Schnellboote’ & ‘Minenräumboot’ that could be carried , up to 4 per Auxiliary Cruisers. That way when enemy warships approached and the Seaplanes detected them up to a dozen LS/Km could be deployed as mini escorts/pickets security around the Auxiliary Crusiers and Seaplane Cruisers.


Historically the KM strategy approaching the war was a hodge poge of cobbled together strategys none of which could work by themselves .

Donitz 300 Uboat strategy had only 50-60 Uboats when the war began . But by wartime Donitz had 36,000 tons Uboats and had these all been Type-II Uboats they could have reached ~230 boats by the end of 1940.

Admiral Heyes Surface raider stratetgy had only 5 of 12 raiders when the war began and the dozen raiders could not be reached by mid war.

Admiral Carls presented a proposal 1934-35 for integrated carrier/Surface raiders/Uboats battlegroups operating around the UK to choke the commerce at the destination , not across the ocean. It would have been a prelude to invasion and given the poor state of RN survaillance it would have worked well until mid war. Thats why the Graff Zeppelin was not designed for Atlantic ocean operations and had to be modified.

[awaygood]

'Puny' Swordfish? It may have been an old biplane, but it sank more enemy shipping than any other aircraft during WW2!

[phylo_roadking]

mmm, dont think the Stringbag total holds up against American or Japanese types in the Pacific,,, or even the Beaufighter in Europe. What it DID do was enjoy success in a number of suprise high-profile attacks, but in broad daylight its success was notable by its lack and its attrition factor was truly AWFUL! look at the losses during the Channel Dash or the attack on the Bismarck the Bismarck was in the end a lucky hit at horrible losses.

phylo

[Epaminondas]

'Puny' Swordfish? It may have been an old biplane, but it sank more enemy shipping than any other aircraft during WW2!

Considering the tonnage sunk by american A/c in the pacific, are you sure about that?

[Drandraufdrueber]

Guten Abend everybody.
Being truly an army man, I stumbled in here by chance and what an interesting reading this is!
Two points
1. the main reason for building GZ, I think, was the fact that every other major navy had carriers - so they just couldn't resist, even without sound "carrier doctrine"
2. Imagine FW 190 on the GZ. It was extremely easy to land and start and would have been more than a match to the allied fighters around over the north sea at that time. Soif GZ had made it to 42...
Just my thoughts...

[von_noobie]

It would have lasted maybe 1 sortie at sea in attacking the enemy, 2 at the most before it was sunk or destroyed.

[Drandraufdrueber]

why?

[von_noobie]

Becouse just like the Bismarck it would be the pride and joy of the German navy, But the Brits and Yanks would also know this and do everything in there power to stop it, Even launching a full 1,000 bomber raid on this single carrier, Becouse if it got out into the open ocean it would be to hard to attack or find for that matter, Thus it would have atleast 3 british and 1 maybe 2 us carriers after it, another 15 battleships, 30-40 cruisers of all types and god knows how many destroyers.

It wouldnt survive.

[phylo_roadking]

VN, needs to be found to be attacked. Look how close-run a thing the Bismark was, after all it broke thru the RN's Greenland-Iceland-Uk Gap picket line, and if it hadn't been for one break in the cloud cover....

phylo

And lets see - what of its target had been....Gibraltar? If they had done at Gibraltar what the RN dod at tarranto? Or they'd found one of Churchill's panic convoys to the Med? THAT could have changed the course of the war.....

[von_noobie]

Well lets work out when the GZ would be ready, Not until mid '43 atleast.
By then Britain and America have thousands of thousands of Bombers and fighters and Have control of NA, The RN can freely get from one end of the Med to the other with no Luftwaffe interfirance.
If the GZ target was Gibralter Britain would have on hand a force of half a dozen cruisers and a few dozen destroyers and torpedo boats, Not to mention ships from the Italin campaign would be sent to help out along with aircraft stationed in NA, The GZ would be trapped between two strong forces and destroyed.

[Epaminondas]

While a carrier is a potent weapon; von newbie does have a point.

the US was mass producing Essex carriers, and after Midway and the soloman campaigns, the Japanese didn't have a carrier avation force left.

Even if the Germans had produced 5 carriers, the americans coudl have transfered up to half of the pacific fleet's carriers to the Atlantic at will.

And that is ignoring the jeep carriers- from an anglo-american standpoint, the Graf Zephlin wasn't a real carrier, it was jeep carrier. All those anti sub jeep carriers were equal to the GZ in the most important characteristic of a carrier- A/C carried.

The SCORES of jeep carriers already in the atlantic would have been pently to checkmate the GZ, even factoring out the land based air.

German surface raiders had a limited time frame of feasiblity... and the GZ just wouldn't have been ready in time for use... even ignoring the 20-30 YEARS gap in experience in carrier avation between the US, Japan, Britain v. Germany.

====

As has been proven time and time again; sheer numbers and quality of personal is more important then quality of equipment. A good pilot in a bad plane will beat a bad pilot in a good plane; and 10 bad planes will beat one good one.

10 anglo-american carriers, with better trained and equiped personal will trounce one bad german carrier with bad equipment.

[phylo_roadking]

VN, if actual numbers of aircraft and surface units are the key to finding anything at sea - how come the Scharnhorst nearly made it out in 1943??? At a time when the North Sea was also the most patrolled area in the world 1/ watching voer \lendlease convoys to Russia and 2/ constantly watching for the Tirpitz.

One ofthe keys to successful use of the GZ was that it would have cost nothing to use - it was already BUILT and nearly finished and its cost amortized by then. ANY losses cause to the Allies by it would have been regarded as profit. Basically the Kriegsmarine had an expensive weapons system it didnt use. A better use of manpower than the constant Uboat patrols at a time when Allied countermesures were so effective.

phylo

[von_noobie]

Personnaly the GZ wouldnt have gotten to far anyway, It had strong AA guns in wrong locations and was of a poor design for the Atlantic, It wouldnt have been able to launch any planes and would thus be a waste of 97.2 million Riech marks.
Enough money to go and build 2000+ Pz IV's
But as for the Scharnhorst i found the key word "NEARLY"

[phylo_roadking]

The Scharnhorst's captain made several mistakes, contributing to his own downfall. Even the RN's records put her final resting place 20 miles out, a sizeable error in navigation. More interesting that she MADE it so far, and was found by accident. AS for the cost, youve answered your OWN argument! thats was I was saying above, that cost was gone - spent. They didnt save anything by not finishing and using her, if only once. As it was they DID waste all that money by not using her