Arado Ar 196 vs Fairy Swordfish

Troy Tempest · Post by **Troy Tempest** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:21 pm

Couldn't Captain Lindemann have launched even one Ar 196 when the Swordfish were sighted? I know the German floatplane was no fighter but with 2x 20 mm cannon and superior speed, it may have made all the difference. Remember, it was only ONE torpedo that did the damage, and it may have been that one Swordfish that the 196 may have been able to shoot down or even spoil its aim. I'm thinking you've got nothing to lose, so why not try?

Troy
14.20 - tue, sydney

Tiornu · Post by **Tiornu** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:29 pm

No, it would have been impossible to launch a plane because the catapult had been disabled by shell damage. However, this was unknown until later. How long does it take to prepare a floatplane for launch? The Bismarck crewmen were on their own, with no escorts and no CAP. Even under the best of circumstances, fighter vectoring is a challenging specialty. Getting a plane into the air is only the first step, and it would have been effectively a suicide mission for the Arado crew.

Troy Tempest · Post by **Troy Tempest** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:31 am

Thanks for your reply tiornu, but why would it have been a suicide mission?

I was thinking even if the floatplane was on the catapault ready to go, so let's just say it could have been launched for the sake of argument. No, they didn't have a CAP, but the Swordfish didn't have fighter escorts so I don't see that that matters. As for the suicide mission, an Ar 196 could surely hose a Swordfish? Do Swordfish have any foward firing guns? I'm not sure, but I don't think they did. A single mg at the rear was it, I believe. The Arado had two cannon and a rear mg, I would imagine it could use its superior speed and firepower to shoot down the lumbering Swordfish. Even if it was a suicide mission, it only had to stop that ONE pesky torpedo and it would have been worth the loss of the Arado? Thanks again.

Troy
17.30 - tue, sydney

Tiornu · Post by **Tiornu** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:26 am

Ah, those Swordfish'll gut you for sure.
Hee! Just kidding.
The Swordfish does have a forward-firing light machine gun, but my concern for the Arado crew is operational rather than combat-related. The sea conditions were miserable, and the Arado was not a rugged plane. The plane could easily snap apart on landing. Even if that doesn't happen, I can't see Lindemann ordering his ship to stop and pick up an airplane while still in a pursuit situation. What if another Swordfish squadron arrives while Bismarck's dead in the water? The best option might be to divert the plane to a land base after the interception, but how much petrol does he have left? He's been sitting on the catapult for an hour or two with his engine running--that's the only way to have him ready for an interception--so his range will be seriously reduced.

Troy Tempest · Post by **Troy Tempest** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:47 am

The crew will naturally fly around looking for the verdamnt Enlander carrier before selflessly ramming it, singing the Horst Wessel lied on the way down whilst similtaneously Sieg Heiling out the window!

Troy
18.46 - tue, sydney

Tiornu · Post by **Tiornu** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:00 am

Wow. That's the spirit!

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:09 am

Hi Guys,

Are there any records of Ar196 aerial victories?

Also, it is necessary to launch into the wind. This may not always have been possible given the condition of the Bismarck's steering.

Cheers,

Sid.

Troy Tempest · Post by **Troy Tempest** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:44 am

Hi Sid, I have a book somewhere on German floatplanes in action, I have posted a list of my books on this site, on the book page I believe, although it is incomplete. When I find it, I'll see what it says about Ar 196 ariel victories. I was thinking about launching the 196 BEFORE the Bismark was damaged, so I don't think it would have been an issue to launch into the wind and fell those damn Swordfish!

Troy
22.43 - tue, sydney

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:04 am

GPT the damage in question - was it not from the Hood/PoW or the Norfolk/Suffolk engagements? therefore would certainly have been there before the Swordfish attack. And remember too, the Bismarck was the subject of TWO Swordfish attacks, an earlier one from the Glorious too.

Regarding its superior speed, the Arado may NOT have had superior manouverability, it was a float plane remember, and at that point the sky would have been full of Swordfish lighter by the weight of a Whitehead torpedo AND a goodly part of their fuel weight.

I'm not sure if I've ever seen an account of a KMG suface vessel's ship-carried floatplane engaging in combat; I know other types did, notably in the early days of the Norway campaign, and the Japanese floatplane fighters were relatively effective early in the war in their island hopping campaign, but not aware of any observation aircraft ever resorting to this. On the RN side either.

(Though I could be proved wrong on that - a lot of RN large ships were detached on convoy escort duty, and MAY have put their aircraft up against Condors - anyone aware of this?)

Troy Tempest · Post by **Troy Tempest** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:12 am

phylo, yes you're correct about the damage! I can only plead that it's very late and I'm ravaged through sleep depravation, enjoying thoroughly my first input day on Feldgrau! As for the Swordfish vs Ar 196, I was hoping to have them launched while the fish were still attached to the 'fish! Even without the weight of the fish, I don't know how easy the Swordfish was to fling through the air, so to speak. As I said earlier, I do have a book somewhere about German floatplanes in action, when I find it I'll report the air combat histories. Must sleeeeeep now!

Troy
02.10 - wed, sydney

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:10 am

Hi Guys,

As an aside, I was once told that on occasion aircraft carriers had to slow down to let Swordfish catch them up.

Ideally aircraft land into the wind, so carriers turn into it before receiving returning machines.

The final approach speed is virtually down to the stalling speed of the aircraft in question.

The Swordfish had an extremely low stalling speed.

As a result a fleet carrier steaming full speed into a very strong headwind was very difficult for a Swordfish preparing to land to catch up with!

Thus, on occasion, carriers had to slow down so that Swordfish could catch them up!

Cheers,

Sid.

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:05 pm

P.S. re all-up weight on take-off ......Steam Catapaults!

Tiornu · Post by **Tiornu** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:13 pm

Bismarck would, of necessity, launch the Arado into a crosswind. That's a disadvantage of those athwartship catapults.

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:18 am

Question- how many times had Bismarck launched her Arado since leaving home port??? This is actually a vital question as to whether or not it could have been launched in a combat sortie....

Troy Tempest · Post by **Troy Tempest** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:01 pm

Hi phylo, at least once! The Bismark launched its Ar 196 to drive off a shadowing PBY Catalina with success. I'll have to check if it was used on more than one occasion.

Troy
17.00 - mon, sydney

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Arado Ar 196 vs Fairy Swordfish

Arado Ar 196 vs Fairy Swordfish

Re: Arado Ar 196 vs Fairy Swordfish