Hello Gentlemen,
I'm looking for any infos about the following minor clashes by Italian and German coastal forces off the French southern coast during the Allied landings in Aug. 1944:
17-18 Aug. night
24-25 Aug. "
25-26 Aug. "
26-27 Aug. "
27-28 Aug. "
28-29 Aug. "
Many thanks for any help
EC
Provence coastal forces actions, Aug. 1944
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Provence coastal forces actions, Aug. 1944
Ciàpla adasi, stà léger.
From The Invasion of France & Germany (History of the US Naval Operations in WW2) 1944-45 by SE Morison Vol XI, Pg 277-278
On the night of August 17-18 USS Harding picked up 4 Italian MAS boats, and with the help of the USS Frankford sank three and captured the fourth, which later sank. USS Carmick & Satterlee got a fifth MAS boat at the same time.
Three nights later a German force of 3 S-Boats tried to penetrate the Area Screen. USS Charles F Hughes forced two of them to beach and sank one with gunfire with help from USS Hilary P Jones
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
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Enrico Cernuschi
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It does mention further on the use of German minature explosive boats from August 23rd for 3 nights against the US naval forces. Which combated this problem with PT boats
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
-
Enrico Cernuschi
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- Posts: 1086
- Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2002 2:05 am
- Location: Pavia
Sorry nothing else of note. The attacks started on the 23rd usually with 3 groups of boats, and that there were 3 seperate days when this happened.
The US PT Sqn was numbered 15 and commanded by Lt-Cdr Barnes.
It mentions other activities involving 'human torpedo's etc from Sept 4th onwards, but that's outside your timeline
The US PT Sqn was numbered 15 and commanded by Lt-Cdr Barnes.
It mentions other activities involving 'human torpedo's etc from Sept 4th onwards, but that's outside your timeline
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
-
Enrico Cernuschi
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Southern France
Hello ENRICO!
According to Cressman, The official chronology of the US Navy in World War II:
17.08.1944
Destroyer ENDICOTT (DD495) and British river gunboats APHIS and SCARAB of the Special Operations Group (TG 80.4) engaged the German submarine chasers UJ6073 and UJ6081 and sink both 13nm off Cap Croisette Light.
Destroyers HARDING (DD625), CARMICK (DD493) and SATTERLEE (DD626) of the beachhead screen (TU 80.6.10) engage four German E-boats and sink two, respectively one and another one. A further destroyer FRANKFORD (DD497), damaged by an E-boats, later captures the craft, which sinks subsequently.
24.08.1944
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25.08.1944
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26.08.1944
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27.08.1944
Destroyer ERICSSON (DD440) captures fishing vessel attempting to escape Toulon and takes 50 German submariners as POW´s.
PT552 sinks four German explosive boats at entrance of Toulon Harbor, but control boat escapes.
28.08.1944
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29.08.1944
PT302, PT303 and PT304 attack two corvettes and one destroyer of Cap Mele, compelling the enemyy ships to reverse course and steam for Genoa.
Hope, this will help a bit ....
Greetings from Austria
Peter K.
According to Cressman, The official chronology of the US Navy in World War II:
17.08.1944
Destroyer ENDICOTT (DD495) and British river gunboats APHIS and SCARAB of the Special Operations Group (TG 80.4) engaged the German submarine chasers UJ6073 and UJ6081 and sink both 13nm off Cap Croisette Light.
Destroyers HARDING (DD625), CARMICK (DD493) and SATTERLEE (DD626) of the beachhead screen (TU 80.6.10) engage four German E-boats and sink two, respectively one and another one. A further destroyer FRANKFORD (DD497), damaged by an E-boats, later captures the craft, which sinks subsequently.
24.08.1944
-
25.08.1944
-
26.08.1944
-
27.08.1944
Destroyer ERICSSON (DD440) captures fishing vessel attempting to escape Toulon and takes 50 German submariners as POW´s.
PT552 sinks four German explosive boats at entrance of Toulon Harbor, but control boat escapes.
28.08.1944
-
29.08.1944
PT302, PT303 and PT304 attack two corvettes and one destroyer of Cap Mele, compelling the enemyy ships to reverse course and steam for Genoa.
Hope, this will help a bit ....
Greetings from Austria
Peter K.
A quote from OSS, Weekly Summaries Reports, Stay Behind Network (NARA, College Park, MD, RG 226, Entry 210, Box 9):
"On August 18 KDK urgently ordered MEK Sesto Calende to investigate landing area (southern France) to determine possibility of operation against it and also employement of weapons so far used or envisaged in western area (Bay of the Seine)."
"SA (fast motorboats) 17, 18 and 19 moved from Imperia to Monaco. Intention to thrust as far as waters off St. Tropez on night 18/19 August."
"Eua Stab Sued [sic], Sesto Calende, advised KDK of details of impending assault boat operation as follows on August 20: Stated that first assault boat Flottilla will leave Sesto Calende on night of August 20 by land ... That i will join up en route with own boats which have already been in action, as well as serviceable Italian 10th MAS boats. Anticipated strenght of operation is 14 two-man 6 one-man assault boats. Place of operation will be Monaco-Nice-Antibes area, probably at Villefranche. Operation is planned for night of August 23/24, but if transport goes smoothly, it will occur as early as night of August 22/23."
"German Naval Command, Italy advised E-Stab Haun on August 24 that 3 SA boats attacked Allied Naval Forces off southern France bridgehead on night of August 17/18, and have not been heard of since".
"E-Stab Haun, despite diffcult transport situation, succeded in bringing up one- or two-man assault boats by road to Villefranche for attacks on nights of August 24, 25, 26 and 27. Haun reported loss of one German boat sunk August 27 (NID Admiralty has advised that an inshore T/P boat patrol under U.S. Command broke up attemp by enemy to launch human torpedo or explosive boat attack in Antibes area on August 25 reports on further attacks not yet received).
German sources (War Diary of German Naval Command Italy) contains also some information on the attacks. If there is any interest in it, It might try to put some of the info down in the next days.
Best
CG
"On August 18 KDK urgently ordered MEK Sesto Calende to investigate landing area (southern France) to determine possibility of operation against it and also employement of weapons so far used or envisaged in western area (Bay of the Seine)."
"SA (fast motorboats) 17, 18 and 19 moved from Imperia to Monaco. Intention to thrust as far as waters off St. Tropez on night 18/19 August."
"Eua Stab Sued [sic], Sesto Calende, advised KDK of details of impending assault boat operation as follows on August 20: Stated that first assault boat Flottilla will leave Sesto Calende on night of August 20 by land ... That i will join up en route with own boats which have already been in action, as well as serviceable Italian 10th MAS boats. Anticipated strenght of operation is 14 two-man 6 one-man assault boats. Place of operation will be Monaco-Nice-Antibes area, probably at Villefranche. Operation is planned for night of August 23/24, but if transport goes smoothly, it will occur as early as night of August 22/23."
"German Naval Command, Italy advised E-Stab Haun on August 24 that 3 SA boats attacked Allied Naval Forces off southern France bridgehead on night of August 17/18, and have not been heard of since".
"E-Stab Haun, despite diffcult transport situation, succeded in bringing up one- or two-man assault boats by road to Villefranche for attacks on nights of August 24, 25, 26 and 27. Haun reported loss of one German boat sunk August 27 (NID Admiralty has advised that an inshore T/P boat patrol under U.S. Command broke up attemp by enemy to launch human torpedo or explosive boat attack in Antibes area on August 25 reports on further attacks not yet received).
German sources (War Diary of German Naval Command Italy) contains also some information on the attacks. If there is any interest in it, It might try to put some of the info down in the next days.
Best
CG
The War Diary of German Naval Command Italy for 16-31 August 1944 (Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv, Freiburg) has some reference to minor a clash between German R-Boote (formerly Italian VAS) in the Golfe de Juan, area of Antibes and Cannes on the night August 20/21, sinking of RA 255 (ex Italian VAS 304).
August 25/26, Missions of T-Boote TA 24 and TA 29 in area Genoa-San Remo.
7 2-man and 3 1-man assault boats (probably KdK-Flottille 611) made a sortie against the bridgehead in southern France. All boats returned, one Italian boat had a hit on a cruiser. Order of Einsatz for 60 Marders. KdK Einsatzstab Haun reports of good chances for "SB" and "Linsen", for "Marders" depending on withdrawal of front line
August 28/29, 11 two-man and 2 one-man assault boats started a mission from Nizza towards the bridgehead. No results. In returning to their base (meanwhile moved to Menton), the assault boats passed a chain of 5 Allied Gunboats without detection in the area of the bay of Villefranche. 9 two-man boats reach Menton, 2 San Remo because of air attacks, 1 one-man boat reach Montecarlo the second one lands at Cap Martin. New operation base of assault boats San Remo.
War Diary of Medical Officer of KdK-Flottille 364 says first operation of Flottillas Marders from San Remo/Mentone at 2400 hours September 4 1944.
According to FH Hinsley, British Intelligence In The Second World War ("KdK Operations in the Medittanean, 1944-45) "KdK's activities against the Allied bridgehead in the south of France met with no success. ... on 16 August ... three German-manned Italian MAS boats were to attack the landing as soon as possible; they did so on the night of 17-18 August to no effect ... On the night of 18-19 August the three boats were all sunk in an attack on St. Tropez ..." Still according to Hinsley more unsuccessful attacks were made on the nights of 24 to 29 August. References are mostly to DEFE series decrypts as well as to Roskill, War at sea, vol. 3/2.
Best regards
CG
August 25/26, Missions of T-Boote TA 24 and TA 29 in area Genoa-San Remo.
7 2-man and 3 1-man assault boats (probably KdK-Flottille 611) made a sortie against the bridgehead in southern France. All boats returned, one Italian boat had a hit on a cruiser. Order of Einsatz for 60 Marders. KdK Einsatzstab Haun reports of good chances for "SB" and "Linsen", for "Marders" depending on withdrawal of front line
August 28/29, 11 two-man and 2 one-man assault boats started a mission from Nizza towards the bridgehead. No results. In returning to their base (meanwhile moved to Menton), the assault boats passed a chain of 5 Allied Gunboats without detection in the area of the bay of Villefranche. 9 two-man boats reach Menton, 2 San Remo because of air attacks, 1 one-man boat reach Montecarlo the second one lands at Cap Martin. New operation base of assault boats San Remo.
War Diary of Medical Officer of KdK-Flottille 364 says first operation of Flottillas Marders from San Remo/Mentone at 2400 hours September 4 1944.
According to FH Hinsley, British Intelligence In The Second World War ("KdK Operations in the Medittanean, 1944-45) "KdK's activities against the Allied bridgehead in the south of France met with no success. ... on 16 August ... three German-manned Italian MAS boats were to attack the landing as soon as possible; they did so on the night of 17-18 August to no effect ... On the night of 18-19 August the three boats were all sunk in an attack on St. Tropez ..." Still according to Hinsley more unsuccessful attacks were made on the nights of 24 to 29 August. References are mostly to DEFE series decrypts as well as to Roskill, War at sea, vol. 3/2.
Best regards
CG
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Formidable CG.
May I ask you if you have got something also about the following night surface clashes by small motor boats:
20-21 Feb. 1944 night off Anzio
26-27 March 1944 " " "
29-30 April 1944 " " "
28-29 May 1944 " " "
6-7 Sept. 1944 " " Rimini (Adriatic Sea)
4-5 Feb. 1945 " Ligurian Sea
It's a long list, but it would be possible to remove the same number of white pages from the book of history.
With renewed thanks for such a brilliant research.
EC
May I ask you if you have got something also about the following night surface clashes by small motor boats:
20-21 Feb. 1944 night off Anzio
26-27 March 1944 " " "
29-30 April 1944 " " "
28-29 May 1944 " " "
6-7 Sept. 1944 " " Rimini (Adriatic Sea)
4-5 Feb. 1945 " Ligurian Sea
It's a long list, but it would be possible to remove the same number of white pages from the book of history.
With renewed thanks for such a brilliant research.
EC
Ciàpla adasi, stà léger.
Unfortunately not after a first quick check.
My documents mostly cover naval activities in the Ligurian see and more broadly the western Alps front of 1944/45 on one side, sabotage and stay behind networks in Italy on the other side.
I'll try to check for the dates that you have added, but I am afraid that, due to limitations of my collection, little will come out of it.
Best regards
CG
My documents mostly cover naval activities in the Ligurian see and more broadly the western Alps front of 1944/45 on one side, sabotage and stay behind networks in Italy on the other side.
I'll try to check for the dates that you have added, but I am afraid that, due to limitations of my collection, little will come out of it.
Best regards
CG
I did a search on Anzio in PROCAT:
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.g ... &image1=GO
I didn't found yet trace of actions during the first half of 1944, although there seems to be some reference in the book of Luigi Del Bono, Il mare nel bosco, where it says the Italian CO of the Fiumicino base was Filippo Nesi (probably still alive in Italy).
An CSDIC report I found at NARA has some background information on several KdK units in Italy:
213 K-Flottille (Linsen boats) made its first mission on Sep 30 1944 from the Ravenna area against Allied ships in the Rimini and Ancona area with no success. In Oct it was transferred to San Remo, where it lost a few boats in the bombing of the Mercato dei fiori.
A group of 16 boats of 363 K-Flottille (Marder boats) operated from San Remo in Dec 1944, lost almost all its boats and was sent back to Germany.
364 K-Flottille (Marder I and II) also operated from San Remo, 1st mission on Sep 6, six boats lost, 2nd mission in Oct (more losses), 3rd mission betw. XMas and New Year 44 (losses incurred); 4th mission on Dec 31 (with losses); 5th and last mission by 5 Marder II from San Remo on 24/25 Apr 45: one enemy unit reported sunk.
411 K-Flottille (Molche Type one-man subm): Sep 44 to San Remo. 1st mission on 20 Sep 44, 11 boats sent out, 10 lost (1 survivor), no success reported. Flottille was later sent to Monfalcone and Sistiana but no further missions took place. Flottilla members were committed as regular infantry in Apr 45 against Tito forces in Trieste and suffered heavy losses.
611 K-Flottille (Hitlerjugend): formed on Aug 22 in Sesto Calende from personnel of Lehrkommando 600, about 150 German and 50 Italians of X MAS. Flottilla consisted of nearly 20 MTM/SMA boats, about half of which were in charge of Italian personnel. Moved to Villefranche on Aug 22 and staged its missions right on arrival. On 25/26 Aug 44 an SMA under the command of Oberfähnrich Siccola allegedely sunk a cruiser. On the same occasion Ltn. Kind sunk an Allied gunboat. On 27/28 Aug. an MTM under Bootsmat Grunwald sunk an auxiliary ship. On 30 Aug Flottilla was transferred to San Remo. Several other missions (about 40) followed. March 45 withdrawal to Genoa; last attack on 23 Apr 45 with joint forces from Portofino against Livorno; no results known.
612 K-Flottille (similarly organized as the one before, approx. 30 MTM and 15 SMA). It operated in the Adriatic sea from Pola, moved in Jan/Feb 45 from Pola to Brioni/Fasana. At beg Mar 45 the Flottilla was joined by Italian Sten di V. Nesi with a group of 2 SMA and 4 MTM. At end of Mar 45 Nesi set out on a mission to Ancona with 2 SMA and was never heard of again. The Germans suspected that he joined forces with the Allies. At beg of Apr 45 the Flott moved to Portorose and later to Sistiana. The personnel was committed as infantry against Titos Partisans.
613 K-Flottille was formed in Jan 45 in Fiume. At first equipped with S-Boat type vessels, received at the beg of Apr 45 12 new MTM and 5 new SMA. Also transferred to Portorose and sent to fight Yugoslav Partisans in the end. Suffered heavy losses. It was also not known if the Flott ever received its new boats.
MEK 71 operated from the Treviso/Venice area.
MEK 80 in San Remo and Sesto Calende
Gruppe Lehmann was sent to Italy in March 44 to train with Maiale typetopedoes. They established themselves in Venice (old seaplane base) and were trained by Obltn Tadini but according to Italians never reached proficiency. Fights arose between the two when Lehmen tried to assume control of the operation. In this he was not successful. Close cooperation existed with Kampfschwimmerschule in Valdagno. Lehmann was sent to Germany in Mid march 45, attached to Kommando Sioux of Korv.Kapt. Bartels with 2 Maiale and 3 men. Moved to a small village on the Rhine with the task of attacking Allied bridges on the river, but never took action. Lehmann returned to Venice in April 45. Its Group supposedly joined the forces in Sistiana and ended the same way.
Gruppe Dexling was a similar unit of Kampfschwimmer operating from Pola. It also went to Sistiana in tha end.
I hope this is quite understandable and useful.
I might be interested in having some background information on the several boats types.
Best regards
CG
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.g ... &image1=GO
I didn't found yet trace of actions during the first half of 1944, although there seems to be some reference in the book of Luigi Del Bono, Il mare nel bosco, where it says the Italian CO of the Fiumicino base was Filippo Nesi (probably still alive in Italy).
An CSDIC report I found at NARA has some background information on several KdK units in Italy:
213 K-Flottille (Linsen boats) made its first mission on Sep 30 1944 from the Ravenna area against Allied ships in the Rimini and Ancona area with no success. In Oct it was transferred to San Remo, where it lost a few boats in the bombing of the Mercato dei fiori.
A group of 16 boats of 363 K-Flottille (Marder boats) operated from San Remo in Dec 1944, lost almost all its boats and was sent back to Germany.
364 K-Flottille (Marder I and II) also operated from San Remo, 1st mission on Sep 6, six boats lost, 2nd mission in Oct (more losses), 3rd mission betw. XMas and New Year 44 (losses incurred); 4th mission on Dec 31 (with losses); 5th and last mission by 5 Marder II from San Remo on 24/25 Apr 45: one enemy unit reported sunk.
411 K-Flottille (Molche Type one-man subm): Sep 44 to San Remo. 1st mission on 20 Sep 44, 11 boats sent out, 10 lost (1 survivor), no success reported. Flottille was later sent to Monfalcone and Sistiana but no further missions took place. Flottilla members were committed as regular infantry in Apr 45 against Tito forces in Trieste and suffered heavy losses.
611 K-Flottille (Hitlerjugend): formed on Aug 22 in Sesto Calende from personnel of Lehrkommando 600, about 150 German and 50 Italians of X MAS. Flottilla consisted of nearly 20 MTM/SMA boats, about half of which were in charge of Italian personnel. Moved to Villefranche on Aug 22 and staged its missions right on arrival. On 25/26 Aug 44 an SMA under the command of Oberfähnrich Siccola allegedely sunk a cruiser. On the same occasion Ltn. Kind sunk an Allied gunboat. On 27/28 Aug. an MTM under Bootsmat Grunwald sunk an auxiliary ship. On 30 Aug Flottilla was transferred to San Remo. Several other missions (about 40) followed. March 45 withdrawal to Genoa; last attack on 23 Apr 45 with joint forces from Portofino against Livorno; no results known.
612 K-Flottille (similarly organized as the one before, approx. 30 MTM and 15 SMA). It operated in the Adriatic sea from Pola, moved in Jan/Feb 45 from Pola to Brioni/Fasana. At beg Mar 45 the Flottilla was joined by Italian Sten di V. Nesi with a group of 2 SMA and 4 MTM. At end of Mar 45 Nesi set out on a mission to Ancona with 2 SMA and was never heard of again. The Germans suspected that he joined forces with the Allies. At beg of Apr 45 the Flott moved to Portorose and later to Sistiana. The personnel was committed as infantry against Titos Partisans.
613 K-Flottille was formed in Jan 45 in Fiume. At first equipped with S-Boat type vessels, received at the beg of Apr 45 12 new MTM and 5 new SMA. Also transferred to Portorose and sent to fight Yugoslav Partisans in the end. Suffered heavy losses. It was also not known if the Flott ever received its new boats.
MEK 71 operated from the Treviso/Venice area.
MEK 80 in San Remo and Sesto Calende
Gruppe Lehmann was sent to Italy in March 44 to train with Maiale typetopedoes. They established themselves in Venice (old seaplane base) and were trained by Obltn Tadini but according to Italians never reached proficiency. Fights arose between the two when Lehmen tried to assume control of the operation. In this he was not successful. Close cooperation existed with Kampfschwimmerschule in Valdagno. Lehmann was sent to Germany in Mid march 45, attached to Kommando Sioux of Korv.Kapt. Bartels with 2 Maiale and 3 men. Moved to a small village on the Rhine with the task of attacking Allied bridges on the river, but never took action. Lehmann returned to Venice in April 45. Its Group supposedly joined the forces in Sistiana and ended the same way.
Gruppe Dexling was a similar unit of Kampfschwimmer operating from Pola. It also went to Sistiana in tha end.
I hope this is quite understandable and useful.
I might be interested in having some background information on the several boats types.
Best regards
CG
-
Enrico Cernuschi
- Patron
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- Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2002 2:05 am
- Location: Pavia
Hello CG,
your answer is beyond any hope. The only problem is the text is too much large for my printer.
About the boats:
the MTSM and the SMA (this is the usual way tyey were labelled, the technicla one was MTSMA, Motoscafo da turismo silurante mordifiato e allargato, someway too much long, isn0t it?) were little motor boats of only 3,76 tons of displacement (an USN standard Higgins or Elco were 50 t) armed with a single 450 mm torpedo.
The MTM or "barchini" were explosive motor boats of 1,34 t.
About the underwater attack boat it had to be an SSB, a slightly enlarged version of the previous SLCmm the so called "maiali" (pigs) of the Italian Navy.
The German midget submarines mentioned in your study are usually well known. Tell me, anyway, if you need any further detail.
I'm very curious about the claimed successes obtained by these boats against the Allies (the gunboat, the auxiliary ship ect.). Is any info available?
The Nesi you mentioned twice is always the same people, Sergio Nesi, from Bologna. A weel known historian here in Italy he survived a failed attempt fo torpedo, off Ancona, a British Hunt destroyer and was one of the last X MAS POW before the end of the war. He is still alive and very active indeed.
Bye
EC
EC
your answer is beyond any hope. The only problem is the text is too much large for my printer.
About the boats:
the MTSM and the SMA (this is the usual way tyey were labelled, the technicla one was MTSMA, Motoscafo da turismo silurante mordifiato e allargato, someway too much long, isn0t it?) were little motor boats of only 3,76 tons of displacement (an USN standard Higgins or Elco were 50 t) armed with a single 450 mm torpedo.
The MTM or "barchini" were explosive motor boats of 1,34 t.
About the underwater attack boat it had to be an SSB, a slightly enlarged version of the previous SLCmm the so called "maiali" (pigs) of the Italian Navy.
The German midget submarines mentioned in your study are usually well known. Tell me, anyway, if you need any further detail.
I'm very curious about the claimed successes obtained by these boats against the Allies (the gunboat, the auxiliary ship ect.). Is any info available?
The Nesi you mentioned twice is always the same people, Sergio Nesi, from Bologna. A weel known historian here in Italy he survived a failed attempt fo torpedo, off Ancona, a British Hunt destroyer and was one of the last X MAS POW before the end of the war. He is still alive and very active indeed.
Bye
EC
EC
Ciàpla adasi, stà léger.