ships needed for Sealion

German Kriegsmarine 1935-1945.
Michael N. Ryan
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Post by Michael N. Ryan » Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:28 pm

For the final throw of the dice the Germans would have reached for everything. Lets not forget Lufthansa aircraft.

And if they had launched a major construction and training program with the start of the war rather than maintain peacetime rates they might have built up their transport forces and naval units large enough to pull of the job.

And the Germans had radar. At the time, their sets were actually better than those of Britain but they stopped any real developement work on their systems where Britain and later America put its research into high gear.

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Post by Hop » Sun Sep 18, 2005 7:13 pm

In order for RAF to keep control they would have to stage long fighter patrols exausting both petrol and pilots. Pilots were very much in short supply.
For the Luftwaffe, yes. By mid August the RAF had more fighter pilots than the Luftwaffe, by early September considerably more.

The Luftwaffe declined very sharply in front line strength in August and September 1940, RAF Fighter Command actually increased in strength month on month.

Fighter Command had 1,492 operational fighter pilots by 1st September 1940, the Jagdwaffe had around 1,100

[uote]As for preparations in advance, the troops are already moving in France. The main task is assembling the invasion fleet which took time. If it were assembled in advance, with all the landing craft and support craft assembled, and all the problems figured aout and resolved, it gives them the chance for a quick invasion to fall upon an exausted Britain whose land defenses are not prepared. [/quote]

At the expense of what?

If the Germans build n invasion fleet, and enough escorts to keep the RN out of the Channel, don't you think some other part of the German effort will suffer accordingly?
And Air Supremacy could be achieved, especially once the Germans moved their fighters onto captured British landing strips.
The Germans, in the real world, had difficulty maintaining serviceability of their fighter force during the BoB. Move them on to forward airfields in Britain, where every spare part and ounce of fuel has to compete for transport space with bullets for the soldiers, and you have a German fighter force sitting on British airfields unable to take off.

Let's make it clear, the Luftwaffe lost the Battle of Britain by a large margin. Suggesting that they win the BoB, whilst also defeating the RN, and supporting the German Army in Britain, and defending their invasion force from Bomber Command, is a bit far fetched.

If they were so good they could do all 4 at once, why did they fail when focusing on one?

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Post by von_noobie » Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:34 pm

ok and um the british only had limited fuel sources, there fighters, bombers, tanks and other vehicles would suffer once the invasion started, yeh ok maby germany couldnt look after the luftwaffa and the kreigsmarine and the army but neither can the british, if worst came to worst the italian navy would be pulled in to help with the transport, the only aircraft the germans would really need would be the dive bombers and fighters, hey here is another possibility, send a combined german italian force to capture egypt, britain would fall in a month, to bad the italian never asked for german help in the first place, but i would trust that the germans would be able to arrange 4-600 supply aircraft each one to carry in 2 80 gallon drums of fuel which would mean a total of 256,000 litres of fuel a day which would secure the panzers, and aircraft, plus a couple of boxes carring ammo for the fighters, and stukas, and then ammo for the troops, but knowing the way the british generals were they would deploy there tanks among the infantry and leave the attack to late, by which time it would have been a german victory,

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Post by Hop » Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:48 am

ok and um the british only had limited fuel sources, there fighters, bombers, tanks and other vehicles would suffer once the invasion started
Britain had built up large fuel reserves pre war, as it was recognised that fuel supply in wartime could become difficult. As an example, in November 1940, aviation fuel stocks stood at around 1 million tons, which was enough for about one and a half years of operations at 1940 force levels.
yeh ok maby germany couldnt look after the luftwaffa and the kreigsmarine and the army but neither can the british,
Why? The Luftwaffe historically failed at their first task, defeating the RAF. The RAF didn't fail at theirs. So why should the RAAF not be able to defeat the Luftwaffe and bomb the invasion forces?

Bear in mind that once in Britain, the Luftwaffe wouldn't have any warning of RAF raids. They didn't have a radar system that would give warning of RAF raids on any of their invasion beaches, captured airfields etc. To defend them, the Luftwaffe would have had to fly standing patrols, and they simply didn't have enough fighters to do so.
if worst came to worst the italian navy would be pulled in to help with the transport,
Get the Italian fleet past Gib and up to Britain? What do you think the British Mediteranean fleet is going to do? Sit and watch? And somehow I can't see the Italians agreeing to send a large part of their fleet out of the Med.
send a combined german italian force to capture egypt, britain would fall in a month,
Why would Britain fall if Egypt does? The Suez was not used for transporting goods through the Med to Britain once Italy entered the war.
but i would trust that the germans would be able to arrange 4-600 supply aircraft each one to carry in 2 80 gallon drums of fuel which would mean a total of 256,000 litres of fuel a day which would secure the panzers, and aircraft,
Rather more fuel than that, I'd have thought. But 1 fighter sortie would use about 80 gallons of fuel, the Germans would need at least 3 or 4 sorties per fighter per day from their aircraft based in Britain.

And what do you think is happening to these Ju52s? They are slower than bombers, unarmoured, and practically defenceless. No better targets exist for the RAF fighters. Historically, the RAF shot down large numbers of German bombers, they will do even better against the JU 52s.
plus a couple of boxes carring ammo for the fighters, and stukas, and then ammo for the troops,
It starts to add up, even if you don't allow for artillery, and replacements for the soldiers getting killed, and spares for the aircraft, and food for the men, etc, etc, etc.
but knowing the way the british generals were they would deploy there tanks among the infantry and leave the attack to late
Considering the fact that they would have no German tanks in opposition, and practically no German anti tank guns, how they deploy the tanks hardly matters.
by which time it would have been a german victory[/qquote]

How? How do the Germans get enough troops and equipment ashore, and supply them? They simply can't.

The idea of an invasion against a force with overwhelming sea superiority and the upper hand in the air is ridiculous.

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Post by Michael N. Ryan » Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:19 am

Bunkers can be taken out by satchel charges and flamethrowers.

The French army with the backing of the BEF was pretty impressive, but that didn't stop the Germans.

I don't know about the Arial supremacy situation. The RAF was pretty much on the ropes. The royal navy had quite the advantge. But all of these could easily be overcome IF the Germans had committed themselves to advance preparations which they did not thanks to HItler.

As Is the existing Operation Sealion the Germans had too many loose ends that make it difficult to see them winning victory though there's a chance. IF the Germans had done a good amount of preparations they could have won. If they had done a proper amount of preparations and planning, they could have gone in in July like Macksey envisions and taken out the exausted British.

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Post by Torquez » Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:43 am

And somehow I can't see the Italians agreeing to send a large part of their fleet out of the Med.
IIRC the Italians didn't even posses enough fuel to conduct longterm operations with their navy.
Also the talk about Germans making neccessery preparations ignores the fact that using resoures in that area would mean lack of resources in another-thus SU would face a weaker opponent.

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Post by Hop » Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:50 am

IF the Germans had done a good amount of preparations they could have won.
I'm curious as to what preperations you mean.

The Germans would need air superiority, and superiority at sea. I can't see them achieving either without much larger naval and air forces, and that will obviously mean a reduction in strength of the army.

It's no good being able to invade Britain after defeating France if you weakent the army so much you can't beat France, or take months longer to do so.

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Post by von_noobie » Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:16 am

ok, i think the british would be more busy shooting at german fighters then looking for some german airial transport, and the germans would be landing armour with there first landings, and all follow up landings, plus A.T. guns, so there is the british armour sorted out, and i would think the germasn would take the necesary steps towards defending there newly gained air fields, with soilders getting killed or injured i am sure that 80-100 planes could be set asidde for transport of men 2-3 times a day, taking in around 2,800 men a day, but with fuel for a tank would not need much, there beach head would be over a limited area, thus little movement for the first 1-2 weeks, i am sure the italians would organise to send a section of there fleet to go and help there allie, and 80 gallons of fuel per a fighter sortie is a bit much, i would think around 35-45 gallons per a fighter sortie, which would allow for 2 sorties per a drum of fuel, of which there would be 800 drums of fuel in each mass drop and there could be 2 a day, so that is enought for 1600 aircraft, enougth for the fighters to defend the beach head, and as for the radar it would be only a matter of time before the germans turned this all around and use it to there advantage,

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Post by Torquez » Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:30 am

i am sure that 80-100 planes could be set asidde for transport of men 2-3 times a day, taking in around 2,800 men a day, but with fuel for a tank would not need much, there beach head would be over a limited area, thus little movement for the first 1-2 weeks,
This was attempted at Stalingrad.It failed.It would fail even more faced with British air forces.
i am sure the italians would organise to send a section of there fleet to go and help there allie,
Italians didn't posses resources to use their fleet, and they would have to face British in Gibraltar.

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Post by Andy H » Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:32 am

Von Nobbie

The more I read your posts the conclusion I reach is that you seem to know very little of the actual capabilities of the combatants.

Italian destroyers were not cut out for the ravages outside the Med and as others have mentioned they would have to get past Gib. Also even in 1940 the Italian naval fuel stocks were not that high and Germany wasn't that forthcoming in helping them out historically.

You have mentioned 4-600 Ju52's moving fuel and then 80-100 per day being set aside for men etc. As I stated the Ju52 front line fleet was only 260odd planes and only 500 by calling up training units/pilots etc. The attrition rate through wear would increase along with losses not only by Fighter Command but also by AA Command. The stripping of all transport planes in occupied Europe and Germany would increase the burden on other transportation modes and in some cases actually slow logistics down.

The amount of IF's required to allow Germany firstly to make a crossing, then to make it a success and then to substain it are growing. Soon were going to reach the point where somebody will state IF ONLY THE RN DIDN'T EXIST,GERMANY WOULD HAVE SUCCEEDED.
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Post by Tiornu » Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:03 am

I do not say they cannot come. I say they cannot come by reality.

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Post by Michael N. Ryan » Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:03 am

Preparations?

1. If the Germans had shifted their industry to war production rather than keep them at Peacetime levels they would have produced more than enough aircraft to support their campaign. Produced enough bombs to flatten the airfields and damage the shore defenses,. (There was actually a Bomb shortage). Produced enough Destroyers, Torpedo Boats and MTBs to fight off and keep the Royal Navy at bay, and; landing transports to carry their troops ashore.

2. If they had launched a crash training program like the US did they would have had more pilots and crews available.

3. If they had quickly cut down on their peacetime buracracies they could have fielded the necessary equipments. They could have fielded a replacement to the Junkers 52. (They didn't start to work on fielding the Junkers 252 until 1942). They might have been able to depoly a landing craft of some kind.

4.. If they had begun assembling their invasion fleet earlier, modifiying the transports, auxiliary gunboats, they could have launched an effective invasion, perhaps earlier than September.

5. If they had begun their planning earlier, they would have figured out most of thier problems and how to deal with them. Concealing their invasion force or diverting away British attention like the allies did prior to D-day. And they could have invaded earlier.

Problem was Hitler didn't think this would last long. He refused to allowhis Generals to plan for the worst and prepare. He really didn't do much thinking at all. He liked to do things one step at a time like a sleep walker.
Which ultimately cost Germany direly.

What would the British have had to appose the invasion? Hardly much. Most of their heavy equipment was abandoned in France. They had a severe anti-tank gun shortage as well as with all other artillery. Most divisions were lucky if they had half their official TO&E level of equipment. Ammunition was also rationed. Moral was low.

If the Germans had done their homework Britain would have fallen.

This is some of the stuff I learned while doing my homework for my novel Sealion's Byte.

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Post by Tiornu » Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:03 pm

A problem with If's is that they are moving targets. You can credit the Germans with greater military strength If; but what If the Allies actually respond rather than sitting still while the prospective enemy builds up?
Another If problem is that they don't necessarily have any basis is fact. "If they had begun their planning earlier, they would have figured out most of thier problems and how to deal with them." Really? On the basis of Germany's long-standing traditional in amphibious warfare? Are we looking at the scorecard of all the other countries whose initial opposed landings went so smoothly? In 1940, the most capable amphibious force in the world belonged to Japan. How well did their first opposed landing go? (That would be Wake Island.) "Produced enough Destroyers, Torpedo Boats and MTBs to fight off and keep the Royal Navy at bay." It has not been shown that German destroyer production could have been increased in any significant measure, and it has not been shown that any additional destroyers they did manage to complete would have had trained crews to bring them to sea.
The If's necessary for a successful Sealion push the entire topic into a haze of speculation so dense that nothing real is recognizable.

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Post by Andy H » Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:49 pm

Produced enough Destroyers, Torpedo Boats and MTBs to fight off and keep the Royal Navy at bay, and; landing transports to carry their troops ashore.
and just how many would that be?
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Post by Michael N. Ryan » Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:58 pm

Actually I did my studies based on Gallipoli. I figure a disaster is always a better teacher than a success. And though the Germans didn't have any real experience in amphibious warfare, they did have a unit that specialized in this, the Second Engineer batallion.

Since the Germans were pretty much blockaded in by the Royal Navy, assembling the necessary shipping is relatively easy. As for converting industry to full war time production, everyone assumed they would be doing that already. Since the British were already planning that if they were invaded it would come along the east coast most of their counter measures to a german naval build up would be concentrated there.

As for a build up in Destroyer production as well as other necessary ships, one need only look to the United States to see how that can be achieved during wartime. RAF wasn't an effective bomber force until later. Increased crew training programs were also carried out later on in thewar, why not start earlier. Again most of the German problems with increasing production lay with Hitler's obstinate refusal to actually accept a war time situation. Albert Speer actually achieved these wonders when given the go ahead.

These IFs are basicly educated guesses based on available reseach. I did a lot in order to put my novel Sealion's Byte together.

ps. Japan's first use of amphiseous operatons began in China around 1937.

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