A defending soldier is only as good as his moral and his equipment.
After Dunkirk, British Moral was Low. Most of their heavy equipment, tanks, artillery, trucks, had to be left behind. They didn't have much in the way of artillery shells for them. Many of the Home Guardsmen had only spears. Many of the British soldiers were issued only fifteen rounds of ammunition. Some might have had more.
Against this what would be the bet be for the Germans whose soldiers were better lead better trained with very high moral. As for supply, even if the Royal Navy could impede ships, the Germasn could always fly in supplies while their soldiers might live off the land.
As for resistence in built up areas, The Germans bombed Warsaw into submission.
If the Germans landed, the brits would have to counter attack immediately, but the upper echelons of command were of two minds then. One group believed the Germans would invade in the south. The other, whose ranks were in the upper echelons, expected the Germans to make their main assault on the east coast where terain was open and panzer friendly.
Overall, I would say the Germans chances of winning would be pretty good.
And that is without possible labor strikes by Britain's Communist and Leftist Unions and other acts of passive sabatage. The Political componant must be taken into account. And it's not good.
ships needed for Sealion
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Rosselsprung
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Oh Torquez, you used to be fun, but now when you don't answer my arguments at all, resort to name calling, then accuse me of the same, you're just being dull. I'll even quote you-Posting to yourself again ?
Let's not be hypocritical shall we? Go back to inventing facts, twisting logic, and racist statements Torqi. Now you're just being a plain troll, and it's no fun arguing with one.Torquez wrote:You are unable to find any arguments disputing my statements therefore you engage in personal attacks.
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Torquez
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Rosselsprung
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"some peaple still say had he kept attacking the airfields he could have defeated the RAF"
Well, some people will say the silliest things. There were never any immediate prospects for defeating the RAF for the simple fact that the British had the option of withdrawing to bases farther from Continental bases, thus securing their operations while maintaining home-field advantage while sortying against any invading force.
"IF the Germans had really worked at building up their fleet, especially in Destroyers, Torpedo Boats, and MTBs, along with gunboats they could have secured the channel well enough to keep the Royal Navy at bay especially with the help of the Luftwaffe which could have launched major attacks on the advanced bases as well as all surface units."
I would tend to disagree with you on a couple levels. First, the Germans were not permitted to build any destroyers at all until their negotiations with the British in the mid-1930's. At that point, they DID build destroyers, not even waiting for the signing of the Anglo-German accord. There was explosive growth in the German DD force, and I don't see much room for increase for the simple reason that the Germans did NOT build what they really needed--a fleetful of training sloops. Much of the KM's early experience centered on the lack of trained men. They lost a couple cruisers because of it.
To go beyond that, even assuming the Germans achieved something like parity with the RN, mere parity is not sufficient to allow an successful invasion. If we want to think that the LW, without specialized anti-shipping units, was going to ravage the British, what would have become of the KM when facing an aerial opponent that had been practicing anti-ship warfare for decades?
I think the main IF to consider here is simply this: what if everything possible goes Germany's way. That's the only way they could have succeeded in Sealion.
"thank you, it was verey possible for the invasion to suceed"
I'm at a loss to explain this conclusion. The Germans themselves knew there was never any hope of pulling off a successful invasion.
von_noobie, could you do me a favor and capitalize, spell, punctuate, etc. to the best of your ability? It would make your posts easier to digest.
"for once I'll agree with you and take this elsewhere."
Thank you. I don't know about the other boards, but the KM section is always civil.
Well, some people will say the silliest things. There were never any immediate prospects for defeating the RAF for the simple fact that the British had the option of withdrawing to bases farther from Continental bases, thus securing their operations while maintaining home-field advantage while sortying against any invading force.
"IF the Germans had really worked at building up their fleet, especially in Destroyers, Torpedo Boats, and MTBs, along with gunboats they could have secured the channel well enough to keep the Royal Navy at bay especially with the help of the Luftwaffe which could have launched major attacks on the advanced bases as well as all surface units."
I would tend to disagree with you on a couple levels. First, the Germans were not permitted to build any destroyers at all until their negotiations with the British in the mid-1930's. At that point, they DID build destroyers, not even waiting for the signing of the Anglo-German accord. There was explosive growth in the German DD force, and I don't see much room for increase for the simple reason that the Germans did NOT build what they really needed--a fleetful of training sloops. Much of the KM's early experience centered on the lack of trained men. They lost a couple cruisers because of it.
To go beyond that, even assuming the Germans achieved something like parity with the RN, mere parity is not sufficient to allow an successful invasion. If we want to think that the LW, without specialized anti-shipping units, was going to ravage the British, what would have become of the KM when facing an aerial opponent that had been practicing anti-ship warfare for decades?
I think the main IF to consider here is simply this: what if everything possible goes Germany's way. That's the only way they could have succeeded in Sealion.
"thank you, it was verey possible for the invasion to suceed"
I'm at a loss to explain this conclusion. The Germans themselves knew there was never any hope of pulling off a successful invasion.
von_noobie, could you do me a favor and capitalize, spell, punctuate, etc. to the best of your ability? It would make your posts easier to digest.
"for once I'll agree with you and take this elsewhere."
Thank you. I don't know about the other boards, but the KM section is always civil.
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Michael N. Ryan
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The Persians had an overwhelming advantage in ships over the Greeks at Salamis. Antony and Cleopatra had superior numbers and size in ships at Actium, both superior fleets were defeated. The narrow confines of the Channel might have been just as advantageus to the Germasn especially once they layed their minefields. Then there are their shore batteries. They could also improve their chances with strikes to the Royal Navy's forward bases such as Portsmouth as well as deploying mines.
As for Britain maintaining the home field advantage against the Germans. Excuse me. If the British were forced to evacuate the forward airfields, their advantage is over London and the Industrial Heartlands. They concede the invasion beaches to the Germans. Any RAF counter attacks rquire more range more petrol expended. They acquire the German's disadvantage other than they still retain the advatage that RAF pilots bailing out still return home.
The RAF fighter command was almost bled dry by the Battle of Britain. For all the talk and banter, most fighter pilots were in the process of being worn out. Day after day after day of stressful and exausting labor without rest but lots of time being just scared. Watching their mates get into their planes and not coming back, day after day, with fresh drafts of strangers who were often green kids coming in, often seeing them explode over the fields or crash. And then to return to their blown up airfields just after being raided, to see hangers on fire, wrecked aircraft and lots of dead among the ground crews. Always with the chance of being bounced while landing by some sweeping luftwaffe patrol. Quite a few ended up 'twitch cases' and being branded LMF.
It was a close thing.
If the Germans had built up their forces and done some proper amounts of planning and prepations, Britain would be down and out.
As for Britain maintaining the home field advantage against the Germans. Excuse me. If the British were forced to evacuate the forward airfields, their advantage is over London and the Industrial Heartlands. They concede the invasion beaches to the Germans. Any RAF counter attacks rquire more range more petrol expended. They acquire the German's disadvantage other than they still retain the advatage that RAF pilots bailing out still return home.
The RAF fighter command was almost bled dry by the Battle of Britain. For all the talk and banter, most fighter pilots were in the process of being worn out. Day after day after day of stressful and exausting labor without rest but lots of time being just scared. Watching their mates get into their planes and not coming back, day after day, with fresh drafts of strangers who were often green kids coming in, often seeing them explode over the fields or crash. And then to return to their blown up airfields just after being raided, to see hangers on fire, wrecked aircraft and lots of dead among the ground crews. Always with the chance of being bounced while landing by some sweeping luftwaffe patrol. Quite a few ended up 'twitch cases' and being branded LMF.
It was a close thing.
If the Germans had built up their forces and done some proper amounts of planning and prepations, Britain would be down and out.
A fleet action prior to the invasion in which the Germans comprehensively defeat the British would dictate that Germans did not have mere parity but superiority at the time of the invasion. Apart from illustrating the ridiculous lengths to which we must If our way to a German success, it does not address the prospects of a fleet engagement in the midst of the invasion fleet. The posited destroyers, gunboats, and torpedo boats did not have the ability to secure the area.
The primary boon to the Germans presented by the confines of the Channel would be the resulting reluctance by the RN to deploy heavy units to the area. Since the Germans were basically without heavy units, this disadvantaged only the British.
Yes, there are mines and shore batteries. The Germans had fewer than thirty M-class minesweepers by the end of 1940. They would be dependent on converted fishing vessels operating under counter-fire.
The RAF withdrawal certainly does not concede the invasion beaches to the Germans.
If the Germans focus their resources on a British invasion sufficiently in advance to make it a possibility, do they ever get an opportunity to launch it, or are they bogged down in France?
The primary boon to the Germans presented by the confines of the Channel would be the resulting reluctance by the RN to deploy heavy units to the area. Since the Germans were basically without heavy units, this disadvantaged only the British.
Yes, there are mines and shore batteries. The Germans had fewer than thirty M-class minesweepers by the end of 1940. They would be dependent on converted fishing vessels operating under counter-fire.
The RAF withdrawal certainly does not concede the invasion beaches to the Germans.
If the Germans focus their resources on a British invasion sufficiently in advance to make it a possibility, do they ever get an opportunity to launch it, or are they bogged down in France?
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Michael N. Ryan
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- Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:10 am
The Germans don't have to win a fleet action with Sealion, all they have to do is keep the Royal Navy at bay,they did similar work containing the soviet Baltic Fleet between forty two and forty four.
As for the beaches and arial supremacy, if the British abandon their forward airfields, they pretty much leave the beachs open. Giving the luftwaffe local superiority. Don't forget this also means leaving the radar stationsunprotected. In order for RAF to keep control they would have to stage long fighter patrols exausting both petrol and pilots. Pilots were very much in short supply.
As for preparations in advance, the troops are already moving in France. The main task is assembling the invasion fleet which took time. If it were assembled in advance, with all the landing craft and support craft assembled, and all the problems figured aout and resolved, it gives them the chance for a quick invasion to fall upon an exausted Britain whose land defenses are not prepared.
As for minesweepers, trawlers make good minesweepers, they do the same work once modified nd would be available.
As for the beaches and arial supremacy, if the British abandon their forward airfields, they pretty much leave the beachs open. Giving the luftwaffe local superiority. Don't forget this also means leaving the radar stationsunprotected. In order for RAF to keep control they would have to stage long fighter patrols exausting both petrol and pilots. Pilots were very much in short supply.
As for preparations in advance, the troops are already moving in France. The main task is assembling the invasion fleet which took time. If it were assembled in advance, with all the landing craft and support craft assembled, and all the problems figured aout and resolved, it gives them the chance for a quick invasion to fall upon an exausted Britain whose land defenses are not prepared.
As for minesweepers, trawlers make good minesweepers, they do the same work once modified nd would be available.
Yes, I think it was in another thread that I mentioned the German ability to create a blockade in the Baltic. The cutting-off of the Gulf of Finland was one Germany's top naval achievements in the war. The contrasts between that and the Sealion scenario are instructive. The Soviets did absolutely nothing to oppose the German minelaying there.
I can agree that the RAF withdraw would reduce its effectiveness over the beaches, and the RAF manpower strain is indisputable.
The great difficulty in assembling the invasion fleet is shown in the results of RAF raids against landing vessels in Channel ports, which were highly destructive.
I had trawlers in mind when I said the minesweeping burden would fall on fishing vessels. I could try to look up the numbers of requisitioned trawlers in Groner, but that would be kind of a pain.
I can agree that the RAF withdraw would reduce its effectiveness over the beaches, and the RAF manpower strain is indisputable.
The great difficulty in assembling the invasion fleet is shown in the results of RAF raids against landing vessels in Channel ports, which were highly destructive.
I had trawlers in mind when I said the minesweeping burden would fall on fishing vessels. I could try to look up the numbers of requisitioned trawlers in Groner, but that would be kind of a pain.
M N Ryan wrote:
Germany had some 260 effective Ju52, which one would assume to be used making airborne drops. The ability of the Ju52 to supply a invading army is very small and dependent on local air superiority and the weather.
Warsaw was surrounded with little air defence, London is also much bigger and better defended
Also the British would know the invasion was coming and thus the Germans wouldn't be making a surprise landing, but into a fully alerted defence
As for supply, even if the Royal Navy could impede ships, the Germasn could always fly in supplies while their soldiers might live off the land.
Germany had some 260 effective Ju52, which one would assume to be used making airborne drops. The ability of the Ju52 to supply a invading army is very small and dependent on local air superiority and the weather.
As for resistence in built up areas, The Germans bombed Warsaw into submission.
Warsaw was surrounded with little air defence, London is also much bigger and better defended
Also the British would know the invasion was coming and thus the Germans wouldn't be making a surprise landing, but into a fully alerted defence
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
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Michael N. Ryan
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- Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:10 am
Kenneth Macksey lists Five Hundred and could build more.
The Heinkel 111 bomber could readily be pressed into transport service.
And Air Supremacy could be achieved, especially once the Germans moved their fighters onto captured British landing strips.
London is bigger than Warsaw but the Poles had hope for relief in the false belief that their French and British allies would take Hitler out by invading Germany. Britain had nothing. The Germasn would have learned somethings from Warsaw and would have veterans in their ranks.
And though Britain knew Invasion was coming, they didn't know where.
Quite a few in the upper echelons expected it to come in East Anglia. An assault along the southern shores could be seen as a diversion.
It's really a matter of advance planning and preparations and luck.
The Heinkel 111 bomber could readily be pressed into transport service.
And Air Supremacy could be achieved, especially once the Germans moved their fighters onto captured British landing strips.
London is bigger than Warsaw but the Poles had hope for relief in the false belief that their French and British allies would take Hitler out by invading Germany. Britain had nothing. The Germasn would have learned somethings from Warsaw and would have veterans in their ranks.
And though Britain knew Invasion was coming, they didn't know where.
Quite a few in the upper echelons expected it to come in East Anglia. An assault along the southern shores could be seen as a diversion.
It's really a matter of advance planning and preparations and luck.
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von_noobie
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well the british were pretty well spread out and there main defence was a strip of barbed wire along the coast, as with the RAF once they abandone there forward positions they would be stuffd, the only thing saving them was the radar stations which were located in the forward positions, and the bombers were not always necesary, they had 7-800 of them and they could turn half of them into transport craft, and as with the british pulling back to secondary positions the germans were the ones that would keep on going and over run there 2nd positions as they were moving in, and once they pull out of the front air fields the germans could use those airfields to bomb there factorys 2-3 times a day,
M N Ryan wrote:
Von Nobbie wrote:
http://www.britarch.ac.uk/projects/dob/map.html
British defences were certainly not on the scale of the Maginot,Westwall or the Atlantic Wall but they were far better than a string of barbed wire
There were only a few suitable landing sites with the correct tidal range and beach geography etc. Also any invasion fleet would be spotted well before its intended landing and thus give the defenders time to move and man weapons etcAnd though Britain knew Invasion was coming, they didn't know where
That figure is realised if Germany stripped all its training schools and instructor pilots. The figure I quoted was actual front line availability. Yes the He-111 could be pressed into transport service it will bt default decrease the LW bombing capability.Kenneth Macksey lists Five Hundred and could build more.
Von Nobbie wrote:
Oh please lets not get to Dad's Army about this.and there main defence was a strip of barbed wire along the coast,
http://www.britarch.ac.uk/projects/dob/map.html
British defences were certainly not on the scale of the Maginot,Westwall or the Atlantic Wall but they were far better than a string of barbed wire
Radar was a great help to the RAF but it still had the observer corp which could help. Strange how many feel that it was perfectly fine for the Germans to operate without radar and succeed, but as soon as the radar's gone the RAF will fall to piecesas with the RAF once they abandoned there forward positions they would be stuffd, the only thing saving them was the radar stations which were located in the forward positions
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
Hey, I don't see Hadrian's Wall on that map....Cheshire Yeomanry wrote: Oh please lets not get to Dad's Army about this.
http://www.britarch.ac.uk/projects/dob/map.html
Two suggested references: Fortress Europe by Kaufmann and Jurga, Coast Defences of England and Wales 1856-1956 by Hogg.
Hi RichardTiornu wrote:Hey, I don't see Hadrian's Wall on that map....Cheshire Yeomanry wrote: Oh please lets not get to Dad's Army about this.
http://www.britarch.ac.uk/projects/dob/map.html
Two suggested references: Fortress Europe by Kaufmann and Jurga, Coast Defences of England and Wales 1856-1956 by Hogg.
Forgot about Kaufmann/Jurga. To many books not enough hands. I'll flick through it later
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die