ships needed for Sealion

von_noobie · Post by **von_noobie** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:36 pm

well maby they may have not done much with the russian battle ship so why waist your time when you can scrap it for more u-boats or tanks.

Michael N. Ryan · Post by **Michael N. Ryan** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:43 pm

And we could scrap our nuclear carriers for sailing frigates which are cheaper and very environmentally friendly.

Truth is the Battleship was obsolete technowlogy at war's beginning. Unless you needed a floating artillery platform for invasion work you didn't need them. The Germans were wise building U-Boats.

Except for U-Boats and Motor Torpedo boats the Kriegsmarine command was stuck in the battle of Juteland. Hitler didn't give them any real attention because he just didn't understand the use of a fleet. Hias eyes were on Russia. Raeder, his fleet c-in-c, didn't understand modern fleet action. Between them they built a fleet that was not suited for war.

In the beginning they built or planned for the wrong war with the wrong ships and not even in enough numbers to be an threat to the allies.

If they had had any brains they would have begun a massive building program for destroyers, torpedo boats and motor torpedo boats for the channel, with U-boats for the atlantic. Have their shipyard people work day and night. Americans during world war two could put out destroyers in eight months destroyer escorts in three or four. The Germans simply took their time except for their U-boats and by the time they did that it was basicly too late.

von_noobie · Post by **von_noobie** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:33 pm

i wouldnt say obsolete, a large number of country's were planning that with naval battles that a ship would come face to face but the japanese did an attack with aircraft carriers, which supprised many, but as i said why did they waist there time slowly building the battleship when they could scrap it for u-boats or tanks,

Michael N. Ryan · Post by **Michael N. Ryan** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:39 am

Hitler and Raeder were first class fools. Neither understood the true nature of naval warfare having mutated due to the new technowlogies. Few did. Churchill would be another such fool despite the Royal Navy's attack on the Italian Home Fleet. He deployed Prince of Wales and Repulse
without carrier cover under a man who just didn't understand what aircraft were capable of. The Japanese sank both.

Indeed Kriegsmarine was controled for the most part by men whose minds were stuck at Juteland. Heer was similar until Hitler sacked his top Generals and let men like Guderian. If he had done similar work with his fleet admirals, The Germans might have been formidable. One of the things I learned while researching my novel.

Tiornu · Post by **Tiornu** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:48 am

I can't agree that the battleship was obsolete. Given a proper escort, the battleship could pretty much go wherever it wanted and do whatever it wanted to do until opposed by another battleship. But we would be getting ahead of ourselves in applying this to Sovetskaja Ukraina, which was not a battleship but a partly assembled hull lying damaged on the slip. She had no guns and only a small portion of her armor. The Germans would not only have to install these things, but design them as well. What's strange is that the Germans appear to have undertaken some construction on SovUk, but only after having first stripped some metal off her for use in other projects. Does that make sense?

Andy H · Post by **Andy H** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:41 am

Does that make sense?

Lots of things the Germans did never made any sense

Andy H · Post by **Andy H** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:45 am

von_noobie wrote:well i beleive the landings in britain should have been done in 1941 but as with the barges it would take 30+ hours as with there design they could only go at a certain speed and if they went any faster the white water coming behind the tow boats would cause the barges to sink, but if they waited till '41 they could have had the proper landing craft for there troops and equiptment, althought the british would have had a stronger army by that time the germans also would be stronger and better prepared.

Your kidding. A German attempt to invade Britian in 1941 would have met with absolute German slaughter. The British Army could throw some 20 odd divisions against any B/H formed on the SE Coast, whilst the RAF & AA Command had grown far beyond the capability of the LW to destroy.

Michael N. Ryan · Post by **Michael N. Ryan** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:14 am

Which goes to prove that Hitler had a slim window of opportunity to nock Britain out of the war by implementing Sealion in 1940 which would have required he begin preparations prior to the Ardennes offensive if not sooner. As I've said before, windows of opportunity are very difficult to reopen once they close.

Problem with Hitler was he was very shortsighted in strategic thinking.

He was the allies' best asset for defeating Germany.

Torquez · Post by **Torquez** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:30 am

britain is a small area

Unlike Poland it ain't plains and farmland.It urbanised.Germans couldn't take Warsaw in Poland with their forces.Only when faced with utter destruction by bombing and famine did the Warsaw forces surrender.German tanks btw were totally defeated when they entered urban fighting in Warsaw.Any German invasion of Britain would face heavy urban fighting and losses for every mile of land taken.And with British naval superiority as well as dominance in air the Germans would in no position to wage offensive.It would be an effort to keep the landing area.

Michael N. Ryan · Post by **Michael N. Ryan** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:51 pm

The same could be said of the allied forces at Normandy, but they got the job done.

Truth is if the Germans had sufficient ships such as destroyers and torpedo boats as well as MTBs, and could keep an effective defence along the lines of their minefields, The Royal Navy can be kept at bay, especially if the Luftwaffe hits their bases. Once on the troops are on the ground and the Germans get their Panzers in its over for Britain. The British were suffering low moral. They were on the ropes. All Germany had to do is land a final punch to finish the job. These could have been achieved if the Germans had done their preparations in advance. Hitler didn't believe that necessary, figuring he could bluff.

When I started researching my novel Sealion's Byte which is basicily Operation Sealion properly prepared for, I read every book on the subject and researched quite a lot.

Hitler was the best asset the allies had for defeating Germany.

Michael N. Ryan · Post by **Michael N. Ryan** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:14 pm

And let us not forget Poles faught as tenaciously as they did because they expected Britain and France to aid them by invading Germany and force the germans to fight on two fronts.

Britain and France sat on their hands. Giving Hitler a free hand with Poland. And then in came Stalin, who despite a brief eviction stayed there for many many years.

I doubt Britain's resistance would have been very good. And the Germans would have learned from their experiences in Poland.

If the Germans were able to land troops on Britain's shore, Nobody's coming to their aid. It's over.

South Africa and India were unwilling members of the British empire. Australia and New Zealand were too far away. Canada's army and navy were too small to count. And if they were to get their things together, they would need aircraft carriers in large numbers to protect and over their forces. None of them had the industry to produce them or the aircraft.

The United States was strictly neutral having been burned by getting into the previous war. Nobody joins a lost cause.

Andy H · Post by **Andy H** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:49 pm

If the Germans were able to land troops on Britain's shore, Nobody's coming to their aid. It's over.

I disagree.

Germany needed its armoured forces ashore which is another 'IF' to go alongside, defeating the RAF, defeating the RN, achieving surprise, capturing a intact port etc etc, before your 'It's over' annoucement could be contemplated.

Eventually by wiping away all the negatives to the German invasion you will get to the point where it would suceed, but that's far from a balanced approach

Regards

Andy H

von_noobie · Post by **von_noobie** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 3:51 am

well i must say the RAF was almost defeated but i think it was hitler who decided to change the target from the airfields to londen, some peaple still say had he kept attacking the airfields he could have defeated the RAF, which would give total air supremacy to the axis and put the RN in a dangerous position to be bombed easily, thus an axis gain, know they can sit back and bomb away at war factorys and ports, knocking out military vehicles and ships, plus any military installation, with no air cover the RN would be a siting duck and would lose large numbers in a short time.

Andy H · Post by **Andy H** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:22 am

no air cover the RN would be a siting duck and would lose large numbers in a short time.

Based on what facts?

The British destroyers countering a German invasion fleet would be moving at upto 36kts (40mph). The German bombers would be lucky to get a hit.
During the evacuation from Dunkirk, the RN lost 6 destroyers out of 39 taking part. These destroyers were mainly close into shore and moving at slowspeeds or motionless. A far cry from fast moving destroyers in open water zig-zagging etc
The RN wouldlose destroyers that's a given but this feeding frenzy caused by LW attacks seems very far from probable outcome.

Regards

Andy H

Michael N. Ryan · Post by **Michael N. Ryan** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:27 am

That is very likely, from the stuff I've been reading. Which only goes to prove Hitler was the allies' best asset for defeating germany.

And again it boils down to IF. And IF is always better overcome by advanced planning andpreparations which Hitler didn't really get into or allow his generals andadmirals to do so.

IF the Germans had really worked at building up their fleet, especially in Destroyers, Torpedo Boats, and MTBs, along with gunboats they could have secured the channel well enough to keep the Royal Navy at bay especially with the help of the Luftwaffe which could have launched major attacks on the advanced bases as well as all surface units.

IF the Germans would be able to Keep the Royal Navy at bay and obtain arial supremacy by wiping out RAF fighter command, they could get the job done.

If the Germasn could secure enough transports they could get the troops across in s ufficiant numbers quickly enough to do some major action.

As for securing a port, I forget which book it was in, but some German naval officer actually suggested building an artificial harbor like the one the Allies had at Normandy. And Fritz Todt's people were certainly capable of the job. He was overruled on the grounds of insufficiant time and insufficient shipping available.

IF the Germans were able to construct such a harbor, perhaps at Hythe, they wouldn't have much of a problem.

And once the Panzers are in, Britain goes down.