The Zerstorer Concept

German Luftwaffe 1935-1945.
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Freiritter
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The Zerstorer Concept

Post by Freiritter » Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:37 pm

What was the Zerstorer concept? Was that supposed to be a heavy fighter for use on bomber escort/intercept missions, while lighter types flew air superiority missions? Did the Germans abandon the Zerstorer concept after the failure of Bf-110 day fighters during the Battle of Britain?

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Post by DeBaer » Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:10 am

they didnt abandon the zerstörer concept after the bf110, they tried to build better zerstörers. there were further developements of the bf110 (the Me210 and 410) and some other zerstörer, for example the arado ar240. The zerstörer were in the beginning planned as heavy fighters, but later got a multifunctional role (night bombing, recon missions, light bombing, some were modified to nightfigthers, especially the bf110). for the fighter role they were to inmaneuverable, so they needed escort themselves. but, after reading all youre questions, have you ever searched in the internet for answers, by yourself? there are many great sides out there, and your questions arent too extraordinary, so you'll find answers there.
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Post by Helwik » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:39 pm

As a long range "escort fighter" in the Battle of Britain it can be justly called a failure. LW bombers were slow and didn’t fly high enough. Locking the 110 to them as close escort was a mistake (as it was with the 109e). Had the 110 had the freedom of action and maneuver during BoB its reputation following would have been different. Flown from the advantage it would have held up quite well against the Spitfire and Hurricane.

Imagine if the RAF had a plane like the 110 during BoB. It was better armed and could stay in the air longer then both the Spitfire and Hurricane. It would have done quite well intercepting He111s, Do17s and Ju88s.

But even so it went on to fill other rolls from night fighter to jabo.

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Post by Liam » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:17 pm

Yep, the 110 was almost as fast as a Spitfire or Hurricane and was capable of diving at a higher speed and was pretty heavily armed also. If they had used it as a hit and run interceptor from height it would have caused RAF fighters a lot of trouble. It was also occasionally used successfully as a Jabo as in the raid by the Luftwaffe experimental testing unit on British radar stations where they knocked out one whole sector on a low-level bombing mission. A pretty useful aircraft all round if deployed correctly.
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Post by Freiritter » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:58 pm

How did the Me-210/410 perform against Allied fighters?

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Post by vroddrew » Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:10 am

Freiritter wrote:How did the Me-210/410 perform against Allied fighters?
In general, all the ME-110, 210, 410 aircraft performed pretty poorly against allied fighters. By the middle of the Battle of Britain there are many reports of ME-110 pilots going into a "follow my leader" circular formation, with each plane covering the tail of the one ahead of it. This was effective in reducing the number that were shot down by the RAF - but pretty useless from the standpoint of escorting the bombers as they were supposed to.

By 1941 the ME-110 was obsolescent, and the Germans began developing newer aircraft - however both the 210 and 410 aircraft were considered failures. The 210 primarily because of poorly designed wings, and the 410 because it was intended to fullfill too many different roles - and as a result was good at none of them.

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Post by PaulJ » Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:02 pm

The zerstörer concept is indeed generally considered a failure.

It reflected a German emphasis on putting up heavy hitting power, even at the expense of manueverability - a general philosopy also apparent in their armour design. And while generally considered a failure, on the other hand, putting greater punch into aircraft armament is generally considered to have been the right thing to do. RAF fighters armed only with some .303s just did not do enough damage. Later German fighters armed with 20mm cannon did much better.

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Bf-110 a huge success

Post by Vinnie O » Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:38 pm

First, the Bf-110 had the same armament as a Bf-109. The 2 or 3 extra MG-15s being inconsequential compared to the 2x 20mm FFM. It was NOT "heavily armed", considering that several countries already had "heavy fighters" with 4x20mm in 1939.

Second, the Bf-110 is the most successful nightfighter in the history of the world, based on kills accounted for by the -110 series.

Third, as a strike aircraft, especially on the Russian Front, the Bf-110 was MUCH more useful than a Stuka, having better range, more guns, and better survivability. And its bombload made it similar to a Do-17, over a shorter range.

The only mission in which the Bf-110 EVER fell short was as an escort, and NO ONE produced a truly effective twin-engine escort. The American P-38 comes closest, but the P-38 was designed from the start as an INTERCEPTOR.

If the -110 had simply eliminated the ineffective tailgunner and reduced the weight of the aircraft by 1,000 pounds or so, it would probably have been a world-beater, even as an escort.
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Post by Dackel Staffel » Sat May 01, 2004 3:08 am

Hi,

Don't forget that the genesis of the Zestorer concept was the lack of long range of the single engine fighter ( bombers escort, air suprematy...). Don't forget too that the most powerful engine at the beginning of this concept hasn't 1 000 hp ( and I don't talk about a printer :wink: ) . There is no way out, if you want to go far you need to carry a lot of petrol and you're heavy. For the P 38, it was powered by two allison 1 425 hp turbocharged engines, so it helps to have more power. For the armement, only the "fools" thought ( before WWII) that one needed to use four 30mm guns and 24 rockets (R4M) in combat.

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Re: The Zerstorer Concept

Post by tigre » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:56 am

Hello to all :D; after a while a little complement.........................

Origin of this concept.

During WWI the German military used a number of frontline “multi-purpose” warplanes, the most notable of which was probably the Hannover CL II. They were two-seaters designed for escort and reconnaissance roles but it became obvious during combat missions that the planes also performed well in an attack role and in March 1918 all thirty-eight Schutzstaffeln squadrons were converted to Schlachtstaffeln (attack) squadrons. These aircraft had the lowest loss rates of all two-seat planes used in Germany.

In early 1934 the Luftwaffe released a study of the most probable developments in aerial combat tactics introducing a new concept for a twin engine, multi-seat strategic fighter embodying long range and a heavy armament of fixed and traverse-mounted cannon instead of bombs. The cannon were to cover the airspace ahead of and behind the aircraft with some limited coverage to the sides. According to the study, this “strategic fighter” was to operate ahead of the bomber formation to secure the airspace and ensure a safe route to the target area and could also be employed on both reconnaissance and bombing missions. The concept was questioned not only by those officers in the Luftwaffe who felt that such deep penetration tactics would lead to high losses, but also by aeronautics engineers who claimed that the planes would be heavier, slower and less maneuverable than the bombers that they were meant to defend. In spite of the objections, this so-called Zerstörer (destroyer) class of aircraft was much liked by Hermann Göring, who ordered work be started on designs for construction.

Shortly thereafter two guests from the Bayerische Flugzeugwerke showed up at the Reich Aviation Ministry. One was Willi Messerschmitt, the owner, the other Robert Lusser who was the head of the design department. Together they presented their concept for a new airplane, designated Projektnummer 1035. It was to be a destroyer class aircraft, which could also perform the roles of high-altitude reconnaissance plane or bomber. Each version had a slightly different fuselage.

In June, 1934 the RLM announced the specifications for the Kampfzerstörer (bomber/destroyer) through its technical development department which sent invitations to bid to AGO, Bayerische Flugzeugwerke, Dornier, Focke-Wulf, Heinkel and Henschel. The three or four-seat plane was to be powered by two Junkers Jumo 210 engines to achieve a cruising speed of 330 km/h at 6000 meters and a top speed of 400 km/h at that altitude. Armament was to consist of two forward-firing 20 mm cannon and a twin 7.92 mm machine gun installation. The minimum range was set at 2000 km and the maximum service ceiling at 10,000 meters. The aircraft was to reach 6,000 meters within 15 minutes. Variants were to be submitted for high-altitude reconnaissance duties and both versions were to be capable of operating at night. The design should have docile handling qualities and be easy to bring out of a corkscrew, while being capable of pulling into sharp turns without falling off a wing.

Source: Monografie_Lotnicze_16_-_Messerschmitt_Bf-110
Messerschmitt Bf 110 vol. II. Kagero.

Cheers. Raúl M 8).
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Re: The Zerstorer Concept

Post by tigre » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:45 pm

Hello to all :D; after a while a little complement.........................

Early Development.

One month later in July 1934, the RLM reviewed the propositions that had been received. Neither Dornier nor Heinkel had sent a proposition and offers from AGO and Gotha were rejected after a preliminary grading. AGO proposed the Ao 225, a twin-engine, low-wing monoplane design armed with four 20 mm cannon. Gotha’s proposition was for an unconventional plane called Projekt 3001/3002. It was an all-metal high-wing monoplane with twin tail booms. Two Daimler-Benz 600 engines were located in the fuselage while the propellers were located in the forward part of the tail booms and connected to the engines by a complicated system of gears. Armament consisted of four 20 mm cannon (two mounted statically in the nose and two in a canopy near the rear of the fuselage).

Orders were placed with Bayerische Flugzeugwerke (BFW), Focke-Wulf (Fw) and Henschel (Hs) to continue development on their destroyer/bomber ideas, which later became the Messerschmitt Bf 110, Focke-Wulf Fw 57 and Henschel Hs 124. Each company was to build three prototypes and five pre-production series aircraft, all to be powered by the Jumo 210. Wooden models were to be ready by February 1935 and the first prototypes constructed by February 1936.

After representatives from the RLM inspected the wooden mock ups in February 1935, they were more inclined to re-evaluate the Kampfzerstörer concept. The original concept to combine a fighter and bomber into one airframe turned out to be impractical. As a result, the RLM developed a new concept for a Schnellbomber (fast bomber). The new aircraft would need to reach a cruising speed of 450 km/h and a top speed of 500 km/h with a 500 kg bomb load. Armament was limited to a single 7.92 mm machine gun. These new requirements were sent to Junkers, Messerschmitt, Henschel and Focke-Wulf. The prototypes which they had been working on (Bf 110, Fw 57 and Hs 124) would become typical destroyer (Zerstörer) aircraft.

The authors of many post-war monographs devoted to the Messerschmitt Bf 110 have claimed that Willi Messerschmitt ignored the requirements of the RLM for the Kampfzerstörer type and that he had been working from the very beginning on a twin-engine strategic fighter plane. He had indeed omitted the internal bomb-load requirement, which worked to the company’s advantage when the Kampfzerstörer specification was amended. But an analysis of RLM documents fails to support the theory that this move was sanctioned because of Messerschmitt’s political connections. The Bayerische Flugzeugwerke was completely dependent on government contracts and Willi Messerschmitt had already incurred the personal enmity of Erhard Milch who personally made decisions about who was awarded government contracts. In fact, the differing approaches to the requirements set out by the C-Amt suggest that the RLM encouraged the three designs submitted (Bf 110, Fw 57 and Hs 124) to differ significantly in meeting the requirements. Milch thus gave himself more room for maneuver when making a decision as to which type best suited tactical and operational requirements.

Source: Monografie_Lotnicze_16_-_Messerschmitt_Bf-110
Messerschmitt Bf 110 vol. II. Kagero.

Cheers. Raúl M 8).
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image020.jpg
The fuselage of AGO Ao-225, derived from AGO Ao-192; in the nose of it is observed the foreseen armament........................................
http://www.nevingtonwarmuseum.com/ago-225.html
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Re: The Zerstorer Concept

Post by tigre » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:38 am

Hello to all :D; after a while a little complement.........................

Early Development.

On 1 November 1935 a two-year production plan was unveiled which included three prototypes and five production models each for the Bf 110, Fw 57 and Hs 124. The Bf 110 and Hs 124 were to be fitted with the Jumo 210, while the Fw 57V1 would get the Rolls-Royce Buzzard, and the Fw 57V2, Fw 57V3 and the Bf 110 V3 wold be fitted with in-line DB 600 engines. In this same document, even before the first prototype had flown, there were no orders for a series model of the Fw 57!

The fact that the experts at the RLM had doubts about the abilities of the plane at such an early stage in its development was not surprising. Suffice it to say that the type was supposed to have a wing span of 25 meters, 7 meters more than the Dornier Do 17 and 2 meters greater than the Heinkel He 111 while its weight was equal to that of the He 111 with a full bomb load! Given its size and weight there was little chance it would be capable of hunting down an enemy single-engine fighter.

During construction of the first Fw 57 prototype the designers moved away from British engines in favor of the Daimler-Benz DB 600. The plane made its first flight in the summer of 1936 with test pilot Kurt Tank. During one of the later flights the landing gear failed to deploy and the plane was damaged while landing on soft terrain. Hans Sandler, who piloted the plane in 1937 claimed that it was a heavy and clumsy machine that was unpleasant to fly. Because the Fw 57 program proved a failure, it is not known whether the V2 or V3 prototypes were ever finished.

The first prototype of the Henschel Hs 124V1 was flown in June, 1936. Its designer, eng. Nicolaus had conceived an all-metal, cantilevered mid-wing design with the landing gear housed in extensions of the engine nacelles. Only the moving parts of the control surfaces were canvas covered. It was powered by two Jumo 210C engines. A gunner’s station mounted in the nose added a lot of weight. The second prototype, the Hs 124V2 with BMW 132Dc radial engines was test flown in April 1937. The nose gun position was replaced with a plexiglas nose cone, typical of bombers and reconnaissance types. The third prototype, the Hs 123V3 was given Jumo 210C in-line engines, a new all-metal nose with a battery of guns comprising two 20 mm cannon and two 7.92 mm machine guns. There is no convincing evidence that the plane was ever flown. Its performance was, like that of the Fw 57, inadequate and as a result the Messerschmitt Bf 110 became the Luftwaffe’s primary destroyer type.

Source: Monografie_Lotnicze_16_-_Messerschmitt_Bf-110
Messerschmitt Bf 110 vol. II. Kagero.

Cheers. Raúl M 8).
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image004.jpg
The competitor of the Bf-110, the heavy and slow Fw-57 V1..............................
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Re: The Zerstorer Concept

Post by tigre » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:46 am

Hello to all :D; after a while a little complement.........................

Prototypes and first production versions.

In January 1936 the DVL/Experimental Aerody-namics Institute conducted wind tunnel tests on a Bf 109-type design with two wing-mounted engines, a precursor to the Bf 110. On May 12, 1936 Dr. Hermann Wurster made the first test flight of the Messerschmitt Bf 110V1 (WNr. 868). The plane had a slender, elliptical fuselage that thinned near the top. Structurally it was built in similar fashion to the single-engine Bf 109; two monocoque halves joined by flush threads. The skin was attached by inward bent edges that became formers when attached to the neighboring pieces. The monocoque construction was heavier than traditional semi-monocoque but significantly simplified mass production by allowing the mounting of internal parts and equipment before the two halves were assembled.

Fixed guns were mounted in the nose. Aft of these was located the fully glazed cockpit cabin with the pilot and crew in tandem. Behind the pilot, radio and navigation equipment could be operated from a small seat. Further aft was located the gunner’s station. Aft of the cabin were oxygen bottles and in the rear of the fuselage was a set of gyro-magnetic compasses. A retractable tail wheel was mounted on a fork attached to a VDM type strut with a spring shock absorber and a 350x135 mm tire.

The wings were semi-monocoque, single-spar, all-duralumin, trapezoid in shape with leading edge slats, slightly rounded edges and slight dihedral. Technologically the wings were related to those of the Bf 109. The single spar passed through the fuselage and was attached to its main steel beam as well as to two support beams. The engine nacelles were attached to the wings and housed the main landing gear as well as the engine oil tanks. The main landing gear was hydraulically controlled and when in the stowed position the wheels protruded slightly from the nacelles. The main wheels were attached to oleo struts with axles pointing towards the wingtips, with pneumatic drum brakes. 815x320 mm tires were used. The fuel tanks were mounted between the fuselage and the engine nacelles.

The tail control surfaces were all-duralumin, single spar semi-monocoque construction with double tail fins which gave the rear gunner a better field of view.

The aircraft was powered by two in-line, liquid-cooled, Junkers Jumo 210B engines with a displacement of 19.7 liters and a take-off rating of 600 hp each (max. 5 min.). Thanks to a supercharger the engine was able to attain top performance at 2,700 meters where it had a top rating of 640 hp (max. 5 min.), 575 hp (max. 30 min.) and 510 hp (continuous). Propellers were the two-blade self-adjusting Hamilton Standard type.

Compared to later prototypes, the V1 had a bulkier nose, flatter canopy for the rear gunner and more angular tail fins. The Bf 110V1 was mainly a test-bed for the engines and for testing the design in flight. The airplane was unarmed and its handling in flight was good with some difficulties during low speed flight. The biggest drawback were the weak engines which were unable to push the plane past 450 km/h. In October 1937 the plane was assigned the code D-AHOA and handed over to Erprobungsstelle Travemünde.

Source: Monografie_Lotnicze_16_-_Messerschmitt_Bf-110
Messerschmitt Bf 110 vol. II. Kagero.

Cheers. Raúl M 8).
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image031.jpg
The Messerschmitt Bf-110 V1 (WNr. 868) that flew for the first time on May 12, 1936............................
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Re: The Zerstorer Concept

Post by tigre » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:05 pm

Hello to all :D; more.........................

Prototypes and first production versions.

On October 24 1936 the Messerschmitt Bf 110V2 (WNr. 869, D-AQYE) was flown for the first time. It had elliptical tail fins. At first it was tested at the airfield at Augsburg and later at the test center at Rechlin.
In Lieferplan Nr. 4 (order delivery plan no. 4) submitted on 1 November 1936 for the period up to March 8, 1938 the RLM ordered a total of 104 series Messerschmitt Bf 110V2.

On December 24, 1936 Dr. Hermann Wurster made the first flight in the Messerschmitt Bf 110V3 (WNr. 870, D-ATII) fitted with carburetor fed 12-cylinder, liquid-cooled, in-line Daimler-Benz DB 600 engines with 33.9 liters displacement, producing a maximum 1,000 hp for 5 minutes, 900 hp for 30 minutes and 800 hp continuously. The engines powered three-blade VDM type propellers. Unlike later models initial Versuchs models had large radiator baths mounted under the engine nacelles and the oil coolers mounted under the wings. It reached 480 km/h at ground level and 505 km/h at 3,000 m.

Further tests were conducted using airframes of the pre-production Bf 110A-0 series. By July 1936, the RLM had ordered 9 such airplanes of which the first 7 were A-0 and the last two B‑0. Powered by Jumo 210B’s, the aircraft were not fitted with armament and the nose profile had been re-designed from the first prototypes. Test flights were conducted between August 1937 and February 1938 and the airframes were later handed over to the Luftwaffe test center at Rechlin where further testing was conducted.

Source: Monografie_Lotnicze_16_-_Messerschmitt_Bf-110
Messerschmitt Bf 110 vol. II. Kagero.

Cheers. Raúl M 8).
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image011.jpg
Messerschmitt Bf-110 A-01 motorized with the Jumo 210 Da .....................................
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Re: The Zerstorer Concept

Post by tigre » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:11 am

Hello to all :D; more.........................

Prototypes and first production versions.

The original design of the Messerschmitt Bf 110 called for in-line DB 600 engines with carburetors but testing was behind schedule and in the event the sub-contractors responsible for making the carburetors would not be able to meet the delivery deadlines. Since tests were almost complete on a direct fuel-injection version of the DB 601, the decision was made to use the lower-rated fuel-injected Jumo 210 G engines in the Bf 110. 86 were ordered and designated Bf 110B. They had a one-minute maximum take off rating of 730 hp and a 30 minute rating of 670 hp at 3,800 m. A three bladed, 3.1 m diameter, self-adjusting type VDM-VS propeller was used. The Bf 110B’s primary role was as a training machine. Production was started in April 1938 when the first two planes were built and finished with the 88th plane in February 1939.

The prototype for the B version was the Bf 110B V7 (serial no. 917). The next three, numbers 918-920 received the pre-production designation B-0 while the rest were designated as B-1. Of the 88 planes built in total, the prototype, three pre-production models and 22 series models were built by Messerschmitt AG and the rest by Gotha. The Messerschmitt-built planes were assigned to test centers while those from the Gothaer Wagonfabrik went to front-line units. Among the test planes was a Bf 110B-1 (WNr. 928, D-AAPY) equipped with a Mk 101 30 mm cannon which was displayed to Adolf Hitler in Rechlin on 3 July 1939. Hitler was especially impressed by the new cannon and made the following statement: “I believe that this weapon is exceptionally important because I don’t think that we possess sufficient numbers of heavy guns for our aircraft.”

Bf 110B-1 (WNr. 920, D-ADJD) was tested from March 10, 1939 at the Tarnewitz test center with a Trommelgerät TG 65 rocket launcher for unguided rockets. The rocket launcher barrel was mounted in the forward fuselage section and contained 8 RZ 65 73 mm rockets with a range of 340 meters.

Source: Monografie_Lotnicze_16_-_Messerschmitt_Bf-110
Messerschmitt Bf 110 vol. II. Kagero.

Cheers. Raúl M 8).
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image003.png
Profiles of the first variants of the Messerschmitt Bf-110 .......................................
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Serás lo que debas ser o no serás nada. General José de San Martín.

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