Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

German Luftwaffe 1935-1945.
Simon_G
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Simon_G »

Lorenz wrote:So every other source is wrong and Simon Gunston is right? Unsourced statements from a lying POW, as so many of them did when interrogated, and mysterious fuel drums on an island in the Kuriles? In order to refute the findings of everyone else over the past 67 years, I think you will need some stronger evidence than that.

L.
Every other source?
What source?
Are you referring to an army of cynics who say... No we don't believe therefore it didn't happen?
That is not sources. That is just a bunch of opinions from opinionated people whom you are citing.

I was actually referring to German Fuel drums from 1943, many still full of fuel, littered over an islands in the Kurils with a year round snow free airfield. It had one runway 1500m long and another 2000m long. I also referred to the Me-264 and flights in 1943 revealed by a German POW interrogated in April 1944.

I was not referring to Baumgart the POW interrogated in August 1944 (who incidentally also referred to flights to "Manchuria").

Three other notable people referred to a Ju-390 flight to Japan in 1945 which I think is what you are confusing the issue with. Of that flight we have Russian historian Sergey Platov, Reichs Armaments Minister Albert Speer, Ju-390 Chief test Pilot Hans Pancherz and another Ju-390 test pilot, Hans Werner Lerche who also referred to the polar flight to Japan.

Of course I suspect even were one to produce an affidavit scrawled in blood by the very pilot himself you would probably find some pretext or other to reject it however the Nazi fuel drums are there and for you perhaps lorenz that is an inconvenient truth.
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Simon_G »

lwd wrote:There has indeed been some considerable discussion of it. In a similar vein there has been considerable discussion of German and Japanese atomic weapons. However the overwhelming evidence is agaist them.
Ronald Lameck wrote:And in 2000 B.C.E. there was probably a lot of discussion about the world. And most of the discussion would have said that the world was flat. Now we know better. And so, outright dismissal of long-distance flights by Axis aircraft can be just as wrong.
But the one thing you will not find is any kind of intelligent debate about Nazi fuel drums on an island in the pacific with an exceptionally long runway... Seems people are scared of the implications.
Lorenz
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Lorenz »

Simon G. wrote in part:
Of course I suspect even were one to produce an affidavit scrawled in blood by the very pilot himself you would probably find some pretext or other to reject it however the Nazi fuel drums are there and for you perhaps lorenz that is an inconvenient truth.
Just the sight of your name bring forth a smile and a chuckle. I guess you should be proud that you bring humor and mirth into the lives of so many. I strongly hold that you have the absolute right to believe anything you want to believe, even if every other respected source and authority refutes that belief. However, it is unfortunate that you are able to weave your fringe theories, conspiracies and science fiction tales and deposit them on the internet for consumption by the young who might be insufficiently sophisticated enough to thoroughly check them out using a variety of generally accepted sources. While your numerous yarns of German and Japanese nuclear weapon tests, U-Boat packs lurking around Uruguay, Argentina and Chile after the war, big Luftwaffe transports plying back and forth from Europe to Manchuria, the Kuriles and Japan, Nazi fuel drums being transported to secret, isolated Asian venues and all undoubtedly makes for thrilling reading for some, I fear a number of the more gullable might be taken in by your stories in whole or in part. So all the rest of us can do is enter a comment like this one whenever we encounter another one of your postings. I hope you will not view this as personal, Simon, and I respect your right to swim against the current and espouse the beliefs you hold, be they rational or not.

Have a good one, Simon!

L.
lwd
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by lwd »

Simon_G wrote:
lwd wrote:There has indeed been some considerable discussion of it. In a similar vein there has been considerable discussion of German and Japanese atomic weapons. However the overwhelming evidence is agaist them.
And in 2000 B.C.E. there was probably a lot of discussion about the world. And most of the discussion would have said that the world was flat. Now we know better. And so, outright dismissal of long-distance flights by Axis aircraft can be just as wrong.
That may or may not be the case. Indeed during that time period there was considerable evidence that the world was not flat and indeed many thought it round. I'm not seeing "outright dismissal of long-distance flights by Axis aircraft". What I am seeing is a lack of evidence of the same.
But the one thing you will not find is any kind of intelligent debate about Nazi fuel drums on an island in the pacific with an exceptionally long runway... Seems people are scared of the implications.
That's one interpretation. On the otherhand the implication you seem to champion are far from the only ones and indeed seem rather low ranking in terms of probability.
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Ronald Lameck »

Still, as any science teacher would tell you, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Every bit of information that people relate has some basis in fact, even if that fact is the workings of someone's imagination. The proven existence of Axis aircraft which certainly possessed the capability to make such flights as herein described; the indirect evidence of fuel drums with German lettering and long runways in the Kurile Islands, and numerous claims of such flights being made constitute what any judge would regard as a "prima facie" case. As the stories do not go off into the dark night, this means that more research is required, however unlikely it may be that a definitive conclusion can be reached. People searched for decades to find the wreck of R.M.S. Titanic. After 73 years, it finally happened. Similarly, people have searched even longer for the wreck of Amelia Earhart's aircraft. Who knows when - or if - it may be found. The important point is to keep looking, and not to close inquiry.
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Lorenz »

Ronald Lameck wrote:Still, as any science teacher would tell you, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Every bit of information that people relate has some basis in fact, even if that fact is the workings of someone's imagination. The proven existence of Axis aircraft which certainly possessed the capability to make such flights as herein described; the indirect evidence of fuel drums with German lettering and long runways in the Kurile Islands, and numerous claims of such flights being made constitute what any judge would regard as a "prima facie" case. As the stories do not go off into the dark night, this means that more research is required, however unlikely it may be that a definitive conclusion can be reached. People searched for decades to find the wreck of R.M.S. Titanic. After 73 years, it finally happened. Similarly, people have searched even longer for the wreck of Amelia Earhart's aircraft. Who knows when - or if - it may be found. The important point is to keep looking, and not to close inquiry.
While I agree with the basic philosophy expressed above, there is an offsetting variable generally referred to as the "cost of perfect information" equation. Over a continuum of time, the cost of continued research reaches a point where the source material approaches exhaustion and each additional increment adds nothing to the outcome. The cost of further research therefore becomes a waste of time and money. Sort of like spinning your car tires endlessly in mud, snow or sand. It does no good.

I am probably the only one here who has examined all or nearly all of the Luftwaffe documentation, both unpublished and published, and Allied intelligence documentation on the Luftwaffe. It was over over the course of the past 47 years (I became serious research on the Luftwaffe in 1965 at age 27) and involved 2 trips to the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv in Freiburg, 2 trips to the PRO in London, 16 trips to NARA in WashDC, 9 trips to AFHRA at Maxwell AFB in Montgomery, Alabama, etc., plus a lot of money spent on books and microfilms. I only say this to show that I've pretty well covered the waterfront, so to speak. Have I seen every last scrap of paper? Definitely not, but I have seen most of it. The possibility of wartime German flights to the Far East was thoroughly investigated by Allied intelligence after the war and just as thoroughly by several German and non-German scholars over the past 20-25 years. The Germans know nothing about such a flight or flights and neither do the Japanese. That's good enough for most people, but for others it's not. If that tiny handful want to knock themselves out trying to prove that something happened that didn't happen, then have at it, good luck and God speed. But it does beg the question of whether or not their time might be better spent on something else.

Lorenz
lwd
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by lwd »

Ronald Lameck wrote:Still, as any science teacher would tell you, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
That may be a general rule however it becomes less reasonble the more a subject is studied. For instance if you take a 6 sided die and roll it once not rolling a one is reasonable. Roll it a dozen times and it's still not unreasonable. Roll a thousand times and the lack of a one suggest that either there is no one or the die is loaded very heavily. If the other numbers are appearing with reasonable frequencies then the absence of a one does indead become evidence of absence.
Every bit of information that people relate has some basis in fact, even if that fact is the workings of someone's imagination.
Figmantes of someones imagination are not facts in regards to real world events.
The proven existence of Axis aircraft which certainly possessed the capability to make such flights as herein described;
The fact that they could theoretically make such a flight in peace time does not mean that they could do so in wartime especially crossing hostile territory. There's also the question of why they would even want to.
the indirect evidence of fuel drums with German lettering and long runways in the Kurile Islands,
The drums may be evidence of something what is far from clear.
and numerous claims of such flights being made constitute what any judge would regard as a "prima facie" case.
Only if the claims are independent I've seen nothing to suggest they were.
As the stories do not go off into the dark night, this means that more research is required, however unlikely it may be that a definitive conclusion can be reached.
Lacking additional strong evidence a fairly defintiove conclusion has been reached. It didn't happen.
People searched for decades to find the wreck of R.M.S. Titanic. After 73 years, it finally happened. Similarly, people have searched even longer for the wreck of Amelia Earhart's aircraft. Who knows when - or if - it may be found. The important point is to keep looking, and not to close inquiry.
The analogy is flawed. Both the Titanic and Amelia Earharts aircraft were known to exist. The Titanic in particular was going to still be close to where it sank and in condition that it would be obvious what it was. The location of Amelias aircraft was a bit more problematic and could have been overlooked numerous times due age and deteriation. I think I saw something not to long ago where they think they have found a part by the way. In either case it doesn't correspond to the case we are discussing.
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Ronald Lameck »

First, I must make one point utterly clear: Whether there were or were not Luftwaffe flights from Russia (S.U.). to China is of no consequence to me whatsoever. As Rhett Butler put it: "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn."
That said, my interest lies solely in ensuring that inquiry is not closed prematurely. All manner of details can be discovered which were never expected. A good example is the presence of so many woman and obviously teen-aged boys among the remains of French soldiers found at Vilnius a few years ago. All were casualties of Napoleon's 1812 expedition.
Like all of us, I've seen or heard some "whoppers" - the Luftwaffe flying saucer, etc. But I was unaware of any great research into the likelihood of such flights. On my view, the fuel drums and lengthy runways demand a researched explanation. It is unfortunate that this is a rather remote location. Otherwise, it may have already been done. Then, maybe we would be able to make a definitive statement.
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Lorenz »

R. Lameck wrote in part:
It is unfortunate that this is a rather remote location. Otherwise, it may have already been done. Then, maybe we would be able to make a definitive statement.
Although you have stated your disinterest in the historical aspect of this subject, some additional information might be of interest to the others (except for Simon G., of course). Yes, at one level this was/is a remote location, except for one important fact: the excellence of U.S. intelligence in the Pacific during World War II. Then, as if that wasn't enough, the Imperial General Staff in Tokyo rendered outstanding cooperation after the surrender agreements were signed and this included the turning over of hundreds of thousands of documents and the setting up of Army and Navy demobilization bureaus that were jointly run. The documentation is voluminous. Below are some extracts from this material which have a bearing on this subject:

Kuriles
There were a total of 13 Japanese airfields in the Kuriles - 8 Navy and 5 Army.

Matsuwa: on Matsuwa Is. (a.k.a. Matsuwa-Jima, Matusuwa; today: Ostrov Matua) in the central part of the Kuriles - [NAS].
Airfield Description:
15 Aug 45: Matsuwa naval air station had 2 concrete runways, 80 x 1200 and 50 x 850 meters, 3 large and 4 small open aircraft shelters, fuel, bomb, torpedo storage, communications facilities, night landing capabilities, and a triangular reinforced air raid shelter for 250 persons.
Operational Units:
Part of 502 Kōkūtai with Aichi D3A Type 99 (VAL) carrier bombers stationed there Aug-Sep 44. This is the only JNAF unit to have been stationed there. Matsuwa was used mainly as a refueling transit field for aircraft en-route from Japan to Paramushiro and back.
18 Aug 45: the Japanese Army defense force on Matsuwa was the 41st Independent Mixed Infantry Regiment.
Remarks:
13 Apr 44: airfield bombed by 3 28th Composite Bomb Gp. B-24 Liberators.
14 Apr 44: airfield bombed by 3 28th Composite Bomb Gp. B-24 Liberators.
5 Nov 44: airfield bombed by 4 28th Composite Bomb Gp. B-24 Liberators.
20 Jul 45: airfield bombed by 8 28th Composite Bomb Gp. B-24 Liberators.
[Source:
3d Section of the General Affairs Dept./Japanese Naval Air HQ, Sheet VJ-6, from: Japanese Surrender Documents Submitted to SCAP by the Japanese Negotiators, 19 August 1945; in: MacArthur Memorial, Norfolk, Virginia, Record Group 4, Box 24, Folder 6.]


Sakhalin (Karafuto)
There were a total of 10 Japanese airfields in Karafuto - 8 Army and 2 Navy.
None of these were at or near Usiro (sic). The town of Ushiro had no airfield near it whatsoever. The nearest airfield to Ushiro was at Tōro (today Shakhtyorsk) 21 miles N of Ushiro, with the airstrip right on the coast along the Tatar Strait (Tatarski Pro’liv).

Tōro: consisted of a grass strip measuring 60 x 1200 meters with no aircraft shelters and just a few huts or sheds for infrastructure. It was intended for small, single-engine tactical reconnaissance aircraft in the event the Russians attacked Karafuto from the northern part of Sakhalin. Since they never did, the airstrip rarely saw an aircraft during the war.
Operational Units:
None identified.
Remarks:
Never attacked by U.S. air forces.
[Source:
United States Pacific Fleet and Pacific Ocean Areas, Digest of Japanese Air Bases, Special Translation Number 65, CINCPAC – CINCPOA Bulletin No. 112-45, page 18, 12 May 1945.]

None of the Japanese airfields in Karafuto had a runway longer that 1400 meters (Iketsuki). In the Kuriles, the longest runway was 1600 meters and made of wood planking (Miyoshino No. 1). There were no runways under construction in either Karafuto or in the Kuriles on 15 August 1945 or being lengthened and improved.

All of the above documentation is in my possession. For those who are still doubting Thomases, stop at the U.S. National Archives in College Park the next time you are in the Washington area. After you obtain your credentials and visitor pass, go up to the second floor where you will find the glass-enclosed reference room adjacent to the research hall. Ask for the finding aids for the Record Group 38 Orange Library. Identify and fill out a request for the Crain Collection intercepts. Here you will find hundreds of intercepted, decoded and translated Japanese messages sent to and received from the two airfields noted above. By the time you finish reading them, you will know more about the airfields in Karafuto and the Kuriles than any other living human being.

Lorenz
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Lorenz »

The above post goes to the statements made in Simon G's post of 1 May 2012 in page 2 of this thread were he asserts certain claims regarding the Japanese airfields at Matsuwa/Kuriles and Usiro (sic)/Karafuto.

L.
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Re: Long range Luftwaffe.

Post by Simon_G »

lwd wrote:
Simon_G wrote:
behblc wrote:JU-390. Range of 6,000 miles.
ME-264 Range of 9,315 miles , endurance of 45 hours. (but with disappointing ceiling).
J.S>
Correct about the disappointing ceiling, but incorrect about the ranges.

Fuel consumption of the BMW-801D is well known and from other published data about gross weights, empty weight payload and endurance one can conclude the following for the Ju-390:

Ju-390 data: (including 10,000kg payload)
Fuel Weight 28,600kg ( 62,995 lb) 10,500 US gal / 39,740 Litres
Consumption Cruise 275 US gal /hour (1650 litres/hour) @ 1800 rpm & 230 Kt up to 12,000ft altitudes
Estimated Range 7,400 nautical miles (13,760 km) @ long range cruise speed (232 kt)
....
Then why do all the internet sites list the range as ~6,000 miles?
Calculations using linear fuel consumption at altitude are somewhat suspect for max range estimations.
ONe of the sites I found also mentioned that due to structural concerns one of the two prototypes couldn't take off at max weight.
Linear fuel consumption was not used. It was computed using known data for the BMW-801D engine (Ju-390 used BMW-801E with superior fuel consumption at altitude) and also compiled from Janes Military Aircraft of WW2 plus intercepted Japanese reports about performance noted in a 1945 US Navy Intelligence summary. The fuel consumption took account of using take off power for initial climb to altitude at 690 fpm. Normal ceiling is 18,700ft, best fuel consumption however is below 12,000ft.

Flug Haupt Hans Pancherz also published details from his diary of a test flight to South Africa in September 1969. In fact after the War Pancherz told British investigators there was only ever one Ju-390 prototype flown, however he told the Daily Telegraph he flew one of the Ju-390 transports [plural] Test Pilot Hans Werner Lerche in his autobiography confirmed that he flew one of two prototypes. The Luftwaffe Quartermaster General paid Junkers on 9 July 1944 for completion of 7 Junkers 390 aircraft.

The first flight was performed at minimal fuel weight as a precaution with an empty weight of 28 tons and take off weight of 38 tons. The V1 aircraft was first flown by Flugkapiän Pancherz and Dipl.-Ing. Guest as engineer. A program of test flights proved the safety of greater weights allowing certifcation to 72 tons. In April 1944 it was re-certified at 80.5 tons.

Some confusion must arise from the fact at different points in the aircraft's career it had different variants of the BMW-801 engine and also was certified with different maximum weights. The V1 aircraft also had a shorter fuselage and less longitudinal stability than the V2 aircraft. An author friend of mine (who prefers not to be named) has researched German archival material also advised me the prototype program was abandoned after the V1 and that technically speaking RLM considered the V2 as the A1 production aircraft.

The disappointing ceiling results simply from the fact that the BMW-801 superchargers automatically cut in at 21,000ft and any climb above this altitude incurred enormous fuel consumption.

Post Script:

I forgot to mention that test Pilot Hans Werner Lerche complained that boisterous turns resulted in wing flutter and this was the reason that efforts to create the V3 as a bomber were abandoned in 1944. The Bomber version was intended to carry Me323 parasite aircraft with warheads flown by self sacrifice pilots. If flown modestly at medium altitudes it had considerable range.
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Simon_G »

jerijerod wrote:i thought the 264 was used as a test bed for jet engines and general messerschmitt tinkering between 1941-44 at Lechfield. Milch forbade any further work on the completed prototype and the other 2 half built were scrapped. If there was a possibility of flights to Japan with it surely they would have finished another one at least.

Cheers
Chris
Hi Chris,

On 25 Jan 1944 Ob.Lt Wolfgang Nebel of 2/Versuchsverband b.d.L met at Augsberg with Herr Seifert, Konrad, Reicherter and Hugo to discuss assembly of remaining five proposed prototypes. He had formerly served with Oberst Lt Rowehl in Versuchsstelle für Höhenflug which was responsible for dropping spies & saboteurs behind enemy lines. Nebel had done so in Iran & Iraq and other parts of Middle East. (Source: correspondence between J.R. Smith & Erich Sommer 1997). A British intelligence report of May 1944 noted that in the summer of 1943 a number of flights were made from Petsamo (Finland) to Japan: (Luftwaffe: The Allied Intelligence Files by Chris Staerck, Christopher Staerck, Paul Sinnott - 2002 – page 150)

Image

Photo Ob.Lt Nebel on left at Sarabus in July 1943 to welcome the expected arrival of Tachikawa Ki-77 f;light expected from Singapore (intercepted over Indian ocean by British fighters following ULTRA tip-off)
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Simon_G »

Lorenz wrote:
Image

Matsuwa: on Matsuwa Is. (a.k.a. Matsuwa-Jima, Matusuwa; today: Ostrov Matua) in the central part of the Kuriles - [NAS].
Airfield Description:
15 Aug 45: Matsuwa naval air station had 2 concrete runways, 80 x 1200 and 50 x 850 meters, 3 large and 4 small open aircraft shelters, fuel, bomb, torpedo storage, communications facilities, night landing capabilities, and a triangular reinforced air raid shelter for 250 persons.
Operational Units:
Part of 502 Kōkūtai with Aichi D3A Type 99 (VAL) carrier bombers stationed there Aug-Sep 44. This is the only JNAF unit to have been stationed there. Matsuwa was used mainly as a refueling transit field for aircraft en-route from Japan to Paramushiro and back.
18 Aug 45: the Japanese Army defense force on Matsuwa was the 41st Independent Mixed Infantry Regiment.
Remarks:
13 Apr 44: airfield bombed by 3 28th Composite Bomb Gp. B-24 Liberators.
14 Apr 44: airfield bombed by 3 28th Composite Bomb Gp. B-24 Liberators.
5 Nov 44: airfield bombed by 4 28th Composite Bomb Gp. B-24 Liberators.
20 Jul 45: airfield bombed by 8 28th Composite Bomb Gp. B-24 Liberators.
[Source:
3d Section of the General Affairs Dept./Japanese Naval Air HQ, Sheet VJ-6, from: Japanese Surrender Documents Submitted to SCAP by the Japanese Negotiators, 19 August 1945; in: MacArthur Memorial, Norfolk, Virginia, Record Group 4, Box 24, Folder 6.]

United States Pacific Fleet and Pacific Ocean Areas, Digest of Japanese Air Bases, Special Translation Number 65, CINCPAC – CINCPOA Bulletin No. 112-45, page 18, 12 May 1945.]

Lorenz
Since the Soviets took Matua Island from the Japanese and the Americans never set foot there you would think Russian sources more reliable...

http://pravkamchatka.ru/news/1090.html
СУВЕНИР:
Самым распространённым подарком с острова Матуа, как ни странно, являются оцинкованные бочки производства нацистской Германии 1941-1944 г. Большую часть своих околонаучных повествований псевдоисторики развивают на основании этих находок. А ларчик просто открывался: к 1946 году на острове Матуа был развернут зенитно-артиллерийский дивизион и батальон аэродромного обеспечения, которые прибыли туда из оккупированной Германии вместе со всем своим имуществом. Учтенная металлическая тара была, естественно, советская, согласно ГОСТу, а светильный керосин офицеры для своих семей привозили в трофейной таре.
Something you may not know about Matua Island / Matsawa Is. Lorenz. It is covered in German fuel drums manufactured between 1941 and 1944:

Image

Image

Image

Image

In the next photo you can see one of these runways centrally heated by geothermal water ducted beneath the tarmac. Alongside the runway you can still see rows of German fuel drums.

Image

The Japanese mined Sulfur and Uranium from the island. Russian investigators have mapped tunnels dug around and under the island. The lower galleries are flooded since WWII and the water flooding them contains traces of Plutonium.

Image

Image

So there is more to this island than you can read from your wartime intelligence report.

Image
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Simon_G »

Lorenz wrote:R. Lameck wrote in part:
It is unfortunate that this is a rather remote location. Otherwise, it may have already been done. Then, maybe we would be able to make a definitive statement.


Sakhalin (Karafuto)
There were a total of 10 Japanese airfields in Karafuto - 8 Army and 2 Navy.
None of these were at or near Usiro (sic). The town of Ushiro had no airfield near it whatsoever. The nearest airfield to Ushiro was at Tōro (today Shakhtyorsk) 21 miles N of Ushiro, with the airstrip right on the coast along the Tatar Strait (Tatarski Pro’liv).

Tōro: consisted of a grass strip measuring 60 x 1200 meters with no aircraft shelters and just a few huts or sheds for infrastructure. It was intended for small, single-engine tactical reconnaissance aircraft in the event the Russians attacked Karafuto from the northern part of Sakhalin. Since they never did, the airstrip rarely saw an aircraft during the war.
Operational Units:
None identified.
Remarks:
Never attacked by U.S. air forces.
[Source:
United States Pacific Fleet and Pacific Ocean Areas, Digest of Japanese Air Bases, Special Translation Number 65, CINCPAC – CINCPOA Bulletin No. 112-45, page 18, 12 May 1945.]

None of the Japanese airfields in Karafuto had a runway longer that 1400 meters (Iketsuki). In the Kuriles, the longest runway was 1600 meters and made of wood planking (Miyoshino No. 1). There were no runways under construction in either Karafuto or in the Kuriles on 15 August 1945 or being lengthened and improved.

All of the above documentation is in my possession. For those who are still doubting Thomases, stop at the U.S. National Archives in College Park the next time you are in the Washington area. After you obtain your credentials and visitor pass, go up to the second floor where you will find the glass-enclosed reference room adjacent to the research hall. Ask for the finding aids for the Record Group 38 Orange Library. Identify and fill out a request for the Crain Collection intercepts. Here you will find hundreds of intercepted, decoded and translated Japanese messages sent to and received from the two airfields noted above. By the time you finish reading them, you will know more about the airfields in Karafuto and the Kuriles than any other living human being.

Lorenz
This is a satellite photo of Ushiro today and although there is no longer an airport there the outline of a runway is still obvious:

Image

and your report seems oblivious to the significant concrete Japanese runways at Gastello on Sakhalin:

Image

http://caves.ru/threads/12936-%D0%91%D1 ... 8%D0%BD%29
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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Simon_G »

lwd wrote:
Ronald Lameck wrote:Still, as any science teacher would tell you, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
the indirect evidence of fuel drums with German lettering and long runways in the Kurile Islands,
The drums may be evidence of something what is far from clear.

Given that the Soviets installed their own fuel dumps with Soviet fuel it is hard to imagine why they would suddenly choose to deposit thousands of WWII Werhrmacht fuel drums on a ledge 124m above the sea far out on Matua Island but nowhere else on the Kuriles?
and numerous claims of such flights being made constitute what any judge would regard as a "prima facie" case.
Only if the claims are independent I've seen nothing to suggest they were.

Independent of what LWD?
Are you suggesting I planted Nazi fuel dumps on a Japanese held airstrip?
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