Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

German Luftwaffe 1935-1945.
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behblc
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Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by behblc » Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:51 pm

Would anyone have any information regarding long range flights from occupied Russia to Japanese occupied China made by long range "Ju" aircraft ?
Any info. would be welcomed , number of flights , cargo flight plans routes. crew details , much of this has probably been "lost".
The image of this "west" meets "east" one cannot deny is impressive.
Thanks to all in advance.

Erich
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Junkers missions to Japan, etc.....

Post by Erich » Tue Mar 25, 2003 7:21 pm

Sorry friend but there were no heavy Ju 290/390 flights to the orient. It is all a myth !

E
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behblc
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Luftwaffe long range flights

Post by behblc » Wed Mar 26, 2003 2:49 pm

I saw mention of them in a book about the art works of Michael Turner , wondered what the bckground was .
Thank you for the shout on them.....doubt I may cancel my flight on the Lufthansa from Southern Russia to China !

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Post by Erich » Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:05 pm

don't have the addy handy but check in your search engines for the Japanese aircraft forums. There was discussion some time ago between 5 or so individuals and one German participant came up with the conclusions followed by an American gent who visted the Freiburg archiv's and studying the a/c unit that was suppose to have participated in these joint adventures. It was all pure propaganda and has made up some very good stories till today.

E
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behblc
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Luftwaffe Long Range.

Post by behblc » Thu Mar 27, 2003 2:27 am

Thanks for the pointer on this one...will check it and see , can see that it would make good propaganda....'Hands across the world" etc.
jamesS.

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LUFTWAFFE FLIGHT FROM RUSSIA TO CHINA,

Post by Walter Godinho » Thu Mar 27, 2003 7:32 am

Dear behbic:

You found a subject of great interest and at the same quite unknown. However this matter is covered in utmost detail in "Der Japanfug" by Peter Herde, 2000. It is a 303 pages book, covering in detail the various plans to establish air contact between the Axis powers in Europe and their ally, Japan. The text is in German. I must admit, it is a MOST interesting book.

There have been plans, projects and plane prototypes build for this purpose by Germany, Italy and Japan.

These concluded with some actual flights.

- Rome - Tokio - Rome, leaving Rome June 29, 1942 and returning July 20, 1942. "El Duce" Mussolini was at arrival airport "Guidonia".

- Tokyo - Singapure - Sarabus - Berlin - Tokyo, leaving Tokyo on June 7, 1943, but disappeared over the Bengal Golf. No enemy action involded.

- No German Flight was made, because by the time a machine was ready, the situation of the Russian front had changed and certai airports were no longer usable.

Hope this helps for your further studies. Take care. Walter Godinho.

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Post by Sam H. » Thu Mar 27, 2003 8:55 am

Wasn't there a plane ready for Hitler's use in case he wanted to flee Berlin for Japan? I've heard the tale - but I'm uncertain if its true or not (or if the awaiting plane had the range).

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Hitlers escape plane

Post by jerijerod » Thu Mar 27, 2003 7:34 pm

hi,
am a new user so you may have to bear with me. When i was doing my research for my disertation i found that the Messerschmitt ME 264 Amerika bomber was going to be used to carry the olympic torch from Berlin to Tokyo had the war not happened and that there was one on standby for Hitler to escape in. (in theory but the prototypes were damaged in air raids.)
This was in Pritchard's book [i]Messerschmitts[/i]
Cheers
Chris Sams

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behblc
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Long range Luftwaffe.

Post by behblc » Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:17 am

JU-390. Range of 6,000 miles.
ME-264 Range of 9,315 miles , endurance of 45 hours. (but with disappointing ceiling).
J.S>

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Wurger
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Post by Wurger » Fri Mar 28, 2003 9:56 am

Hello Erich,

I may be wrong, but I think there was some discussion of this subject a while ago at:

http://www.j-aircraft.com

Does that sound right?

Regards,

Wurger

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Re: Junkers missions to Japan, etc.....

Post by seendcleeve » Sun Apr 04, 2004 1:03 pm

Didn't the Luftwaffe deliver some indian parachutists to Persia in 1941 or 42

Would that not have been in Ju290/390


Erich wrote:Sorry friend but there were no heavy Ju 290/390 flights to the orient. It is all a myth !

E

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Post by FactsO'plenty » Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:52 am

April, 1944...one flight from Odessa to Mukden, Manchuria bringing the Japanese 4 tons of detailed optical equipment and bringing back a consignment of molybendum...

from "Ostfront:Hitler's War on Russia 1941-45" Charles Winchester

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Post by Simon_G » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:02 am

Facts O'Pleanty Charles Winchester may be in error there, or you could have misquoted because I doubt Odessa was in German hands much after 1942.

On the other hands the original claims of flights to "Manchuria" specifically mentioned flights from Odessa and later from Milec (Poland)

If you take these dates as a guideline then the flights occurred during 1942.

Oberst von Rowehl was first to operate deep into Soviet airspace in February 1940, when using Heinkel He-70 aircraft in Hungarian markings he overflew and photographed much of Byelorussia and the Caucases oil fields.

For a time Theodor von Rowhel's photo reconnaissance unit as Aufklarungsgruppe 100 O.b.d.L., operated from Vichy Syria.

In March 1942 the unit became absorbed into a new unit called Zirkus Rosarius after Flugkapitan Rosarius. Zirkus Rosarius was also under the control of Abwher 5th branch (Air Intelligence) and thus not under the normal Luftwaffe chain of command.

Aircraft Identities

In February 1942 three Ju290 A5 aircraft with BMW801D engines were withdrawn from Atlantic reconnaissance service. These aircraft were then coded T9+WK, T9+UK and T9+VK

T9+VK/A3+BB was the only survivor. It was damaged in a hanger at Finsterwalde by Allied fighters whilst in civil Lufthansa markings sometime around Feb 1944. It was later scrapped in April 1944 at Travemunde.

These three were also re-engined to A-7 standard with BMW801G engines. It is interesting to speculate whether these were also the three Ju-290 A7 aircraft proposed for sale to Japan as strategic bombers ?

Manchuria Flights flown by Zirkus Rosarius ?

The Ju-290 aircraft which flew to Nighsia in China appear to have belonged to Zirkus Rosarius (Versuckverband OBdL). Junkers historian Horst Zoller advises me of a German newspaper article in the 1950s which asserted that these manchurian flights were conducted by aircraft in Deutsch Luft Hansa markings. It was not uncommon for Zirkus Rosarius to fly allied aircraft in all sorts of markings on espionage missions so it is not really a stretch to imagine Ju-290s in Lufthansa liveries.

KG200 was not formed until 20 February 1944. KG200's leader, Werner Baumberg came from flying bombers and not from Zirkus Rosarius, therefore if the Manchuria flights happened in 1942 or 1943, he would have no first hand knowledge of those missions. Unfortunately he is often quoted as an authority on flights to Manchuria, when quite likely he was not.

Compounding the difficulty of establishing the facts, 80% of all the Luftwaffe's records were taken from mines in Silesia in 1945 to Linz Austria where they were all burned in a month long orgy.

People who suggest the flights did not happen because Luftwaffe records do not say so are ignoring the total lack of Luftwaffe records and especially from more secret units.

After WW2 the CIA took over all the photographic records of von Rowehl's Aufklarungsgruppe 100, Zirkus Rosario and KG200 after the war. These archives remain classified today.

Thus the CIA for reasons of cold war secrecy maintained the secrets of long range operations over Russia in WW2 for it's own purposes.
Last edited by Simon_G on Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Simon_G » Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:46 pm

In addition to claims of Ju-290 flights, Junkers historian Horst Zoller told me in 2004 of a german newspaper article in the 1950s about not only the Ju-290 flights to Ninghsia, but also about a flight to Sakhalin by Bv222.

The article Horst which mentioned also claimed the Ju-290 aircraft were in Deutsch Luft Hansa (DLH) markings. This would be consistent with Japanese sensitivity to German military aircraft overflying the Soviet union and it may be that one of the earliest Ju-290 flights to Japan was shot down in millitary markings causing such sensitivity.

JU-290 werke nr. J000183 shot down over Russia marked T9+WK may have been that aircraft.

This aircraft was one of three withdrawn from other duties:

Werke nr J900183, Ju290-A7 markings KR+LP
Werke nr J900182, Ju290-A9, markings KR+LM
Werke nr J900185, Ju290-A7 markings KR+LN

Joining Zirkus Rosaius, they were re-coded

KR+LP as T9+WK
KR+LM as T9+UK
KR+LN as T9+VK

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Re: Luftwaffe Flight From Russia to China.

Post by Carl Schwamberger » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:41 pm

I've read this thread on two other forums. One item that is never mentioned is the possible use of a stopover in Afganistan. Kabul & its environs were a hub of Axis, both German and Japanese, espianoge and related activity. Setting up a refuel & layover stop or just a navigation aid is not unbeliveable. Routing a 'Lufthansa' aircraft through nuetral Turkey & then over Persia & Afganistan has a advantage of avoiding the much more active Soviet air defenses. The Allied air defense over this southern route were certainly less robust.

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