FLZ-PZ-Auf-Abt-“Hermann Göring” Organization vs "Scouts Out"

German Luftwaffe 1935-1945.
Post Reply
NID_2575
New Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:46 am

FLZ-PZ-Auf-Abt-“Hermann Göring” Organization vs "Scouts Out"

Post by NID_2575 »

I just finished reading Robert Edwards book Scouts Out and I was hoping to find a clarification, or new ideas and or answers.

In his organization for the HG Aufklarungs Abt for September 1944— he list the second company as "2nd Light Self-Propelled Battery".

Does anyone know what type of Self-Propelled Battery he is referring to?

I know in September of 44 the Division is officially being reorganized into a Korps so it may have had this asset at the start of the reorganization but since the HG Division left a great deal of their equipment in Italy then traveled to Poland to re-equipp and then had spent almost every day from Mid July to September fighting non-stop in Prussia and Poland I would doubt that the organization of the Aufklarngs Btln would would adopt this new structure out of the blue. At the end of September they did get a lot of new equipment and were a priority for resupply thanks to Göring's influence but the next organization for the Aufkalarnungs battalion does not list any Light Self-Propelled Battery in their Order of battle, and by this stage of the war no one in the German army was getting everything that they were suppose to have.

So was it dropped, or was it never there? Was it a supply of Sdkfz 234/4's?

I know that HG did structure themselves differently and it would not be without president to have a self-propelled AA element attached to a battalion for them. However by late 44 HG was being basically organized along Heer models and the Heer model for the Order of Battle is identically described in the Nafziger list, in Osprey's German Armored cars and half-tracks 1939-45, and in Osprey's Panzer Divisions 44-45. Non of them list any sort of self-propelled battery.

Any discussion, answers, or direction for resources would be awesome! Thank you! :D
Alanmccoubrey
Contributor
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 9:23 am
Location: Westbury, Wiltshire, UK.

Re: FLZ-PZ-Auf-Abt-“Hermann Göring” Organization vs "Scouts Out"

Post by Alanmccoubrey »

First of all it would have been impossible for the HG to be issued any SdKfz 234/4 in September 1944 since the vehicle wasn't produced until December of that year.
Just how sure are you that there isn't just a translation error here ? In a 1944 Recce Bn the Staff Company would have had the Armoured Cars, the first company the SdKfz 250/9, the second and third were the rifle companies and the fourth was the heavy company. Now it is also possible that the numbering was different , with Staff being numbered first and so on. Regardless of which numbering system they used there was as you say no "Light Self-propelled" battery in the Recce Bn.

We know from Martin Block's excellent work that in October 1944 HG was issued the vehicles for its SdKfz 250/9 company and from the listing in the Panzer Archiv the armoured car company was issued with 1 x SdKfz 232, 13 x SdKfz 234/1 and 3 x SdKfz 234/3. This would allow someone to incorrectly describe either company as a "LIght Self-propelled battery" since both were equipped with vehicles armed with AA capable 20mm guns.

By the way what does FLZ mean ?

Links to the issue lists...

SdKfz 250/9
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=28700

Armoured Cars.
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... &start=210
Alan
NID_2575
New Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:46 am

Re: FLZ-PZ-Auf-Abt-“Hermann Göring” Organization vs "Scouts Out"

Post by NID_2575 »

Alan,

Thank you for the great response!

I should have put a big smiling laughing face by my comment about the Sdkfz 234/4. It was suppose to be a joke. :shock:

I have been lurking around WWII history boards looking into the HG for a while and have come across as you say, and I totally agree with, “Martin Block’s excellent work”! His comments, and facts, about the Sdkfz 234/4 - especially who got them, and when, was the basis for what I though was a funny joke about the existence of a self-propelled battery of vehicles that weren’t even built yet being part of the HG at that time.

As Mr. Block documented and you very correctly pointed out… not way did any element of the German Army have them by September 1944 and by December 1944 it is almost gospel that absolutely NOONE in the entire German army was able to field an entire anything at the listed K.St.N strengths, due to supply, manpower, and equipment loss or issues. I was trying to be funny, as to the absurdity that a battery of them existed.

However from my poor joke your response with the links to the Sdkfz 250/9 and the Armored Cars topic were completely unknown to me and I have spent a TON of time reading and exploring the posts and the information. Thank you for re-linking them, great work and topic information in each!

As for a translation error I would have to write the Author and ask for his original sources and then check them out. Not that I have any skill in German other than Google Translator and what I get from studying WWII history. So anything I received could easily be translated incorrectly. Though from the level of research Robert Edwards has put into ‘Scouts Out’, I feel that it would be a bit of a shock to see that in only one spot did a translation error occur from -- 'I don’t know what' --- to “Battery”. His records that show the development of all of the Aufklarungs elements in so many infantry, and Panzer organizations is to me really impressive. Not only in its collection of information but also in that I found it really easy to break down, and understand.

So personally I would be hard pressed to believe that the author put anything in an Elite and ‘Named’ Division other than what he thought it was to have. This is speculation and personal belief and should go nowhere in discussion unless the author weighs in, or someone gets the authors materials somehow and posts their findings. So until that time….

Your organizational summery is spot on with everything I believe that was the intended K.St.N organization that Fls-Pz-Aufklarungsabitalung 1. ‘HG’ was suppose to have in September 1944. Now what exactly they got, how much, and how often… I will leave that to those who have much deeper and much better access to Primary Sources than I.

Last what is FLZ --- Poor spelling that grew into a bad habit ---Fls --- that is correct.

Sorry for delay in response… bills to pay and work than needs doing to get them that way.., and apologies for the factual shakeup I caused trying to make what is a poor joke. However from it I really wanted to thank you again for the response and great links. I will stop the attempts to be funny as I can see that it can cause confusion to a time in history that is already without a lot of clarity.

Thanks Again!
Post Reply