Why did Gerd Barkhorn/and others not get the Diamonds

Kameraden · Post by **Kameraden** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:38 am

Why did Gerd Barkhorn never receive the Diamonds

Second Highest Ace in History with 301 confirmed Kills.

I appreciate i believe all his Victories were on the Eastern Front where many more kills were required for the Award of the KC and it's higher Versions.However Erich Hartman was awarded the Diamonds just after his 300th kill in the same Front.

Nowotny had 258 kills'but 255 of them were Eastern Front and he received the Diamonds.

However Rall achieved 275 kills and 272 of these were Eastern Front and thats 17 more than Nowotny yet he only received the Swords.

Gordon Gollob got the Diamonds and had 150 Kills yet 144 of these were on the Eastern Front.

Hermann Graf received the Diamonds'but only had 202 eastern and 214 kills in Total.

So people who say that it was because they were Eastern Front Kills must be wrong from the previous examples.

Also the Russian Planes and Pilots were much better and improved nearer the wars end than in 1941-42 when many of the high scoring Aces acheived their massive kill scores.Yet Barkhorn and Rall were shooting down these later quality pilots in huge numbers yet got no Diamonds?

I have heard that Barkhorn was recommended for the Diamonds at wars end'but don't know if this is true.

But why the inconsistincies with rewarding Eastern Front Pilots especially nearer wars end when getting kills was harder??

Thanx

ericv · Post by **ericv** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 8:50 am

apparnetly during the course of the war , the numbers of downed airplanes needed for receiving the KC , oakleaves, swords and diamonds continued to rise..

This roughly explains why for example Adolf Galland and Werner Moelders received the Diamonds with only slightly more than 100 kills.
And others with kills above 100 only received the oakleaves.

What also counted was the type of aeroplane downed and the time of day that it was shot down . A 4-engined bomber destroyed at night counted for much more than a single-engined fighter during the day.

This explains why Helmut Lent received the diamonds with also if I recall correctly just above 100 kills. (many of them 4-engined bombers at night)

There are probably other people that can give you the exact details..

Maybe this explains why such aces as Rall or Barkhorn didn't receive the Diamonds.

on a sidenote:

I do remember that both Rall and Hartmann became senior commanding officers of the Luftwaffe of the Bundeswehr.

Does anybody know of any other aces that held posts in the Bundeswehr?

Geoffrey · Post by **Geoffrey** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 5:49 pm

Don't know the answer to that one, Eric, there may be more! I sincerely believe that abrasive personalities & politics were involved as Barkhorn was probably considered by Goering as one of the fighterpilot "mutineers" led by Lutzow, as they were most certainly friends, along w/Macky Steinhoff, when Barkhorn joined KG-200 adding to the other illustrious "malcontents" both Goering & Hitler most assuredly wanted to be rid of, even when they were the last Luftwaffe line of defense in the Reich at the end of the war. Unfortunately, this may have added to the bombastic attitude of the military "higher-ups", plus everyone at the end of the war were beginning to think more about their own futures. Just a perspective...

ericv · Post by **ericv** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 9:47 am

Hi geoffrey,

Interesting perspective.

btw.. Do you mean that these pilots that you mention were openly expressing doubts about their political leadership?

Mark C Yerger · Post by **Mark C Yerger** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 12:11 pm

Steinhoff with NATO postwar and, to me, worthy of Diamonds. Rall probably best pilot in combat/mission/kill ration and deserved the award. Barkhorn deserved it for 300 regardless of politics and am told was rather bitter about it, understandably so. A signed photo of each of these men among my prized possessions.

Mark

heinz kling · Post by **heinz kling** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 9:38 pm

Even the Experte agreed that he has no equals.

Kameraden · Post by **Kameraden** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:50 am

Sorry Heinz

But the greatest German Figher Pilot in WW2 was Marseille.
Only 158 kills'but all of them British/Western.
He shot down 17 in one day.
Who knows what his score would have went on to if he had'nt died tragically in an accident?

"Even the Experte agreed that he has no equals."

Well Galland called Marseille "An UNEQUALLED virtuoso"

That would indicate he is off the same opinion as me.

Enrico Mölders · Post by **Enrico Mölders** » Sat Apr 05, 2003 4:00 am

Hello,

please don't forget that not only the peronal succes should count but also the leadership and charisma of a man.

Hartmann, Marseille were indeed excellent fighter pilots with a deadly talent but they lacked the abbiliy of leathership. Of course they were pretty young and for example Hartmann showed in his later career with the postwar Luftwaffe that he also showed excellent leadership abbilities.

For Mölders I think he received his diamonds for beeing the first fighter reaching 100 kills which noone ever expected in that state of war.
But I think Mölders showed in his short life as a fighter pilot and Inspekteur der Jagdflieger that he was also a brilliant leader with a eye for the needs and a heart for his men as well as for his enemy.

bye enrico

JoseS · Post by **JoseS** » Sat Apr 05, 2003 8:37 pm

One of the outstanding Luftwaffe fighter pilots that flew combat on the Eastern Front against the Red Air Force was Werner Molders. He was the first Luftwaffe pilot to achieve an aerial victory total of 20, 40, 80 and 100 aircraft. He was also the first member of the German Armed Forces to be awarded the Diamonds to his Knight's Cross. The only reason why he ended his career with only 115 aerial victories was because he was pulled out of combat and promoted to the rank of full Oberst, the youngest in the Luftwaffe, and given a staff position.

Mad Volksdeutscher · Post by **Mad Volksdeutscher** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:43 pm

Also might explain why the sole holder of the Golden oakleaves, with diamonds & swords -- Luftwaffe panzerjaeger extraordinaire Hans-Ulrich Rudel got the ultimate award for a ''mere" 200 kills.

Taking the obsolescent Ju-87 tricked-out with an AT gun and making like it's an A-10 Warthog on Soviet armor? Dozens of times?

At that stage of the war, just as astounding as Werner "my sinuses are STILL bothering me" Molders getting 100 kills back in July 1941, if not more so.

IMHO, moving Oberst W. Molders to a staff post was a good thing. Not sure if it would have been really practical to put a Kleenex box holder in a FW-190 or a BF-109 type cockpit.

LOL!

(Hey, Galland got a dashboard cigar lighter and ashtray installed in his Messerschmitt, so it's obvious who the NEXT "Experte" to have gotten a Custom Cockpit Options Package would have been!)

Hawk · Post by **Hawk** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:10 pm

As was mention before, the number of confirm aircrafts had a close link with the date and theater of operation. The first Knight Cross for the Luftwaffe was awarded when Molders achieved 20 kills, by the end of the war on the eastern front the pilots could start to covet for KC when they reach 100 kills. So, in consecuence all higher grades of the KC were bump up every time it was awarded.
Something else that was very important for getting a KC (and its upgrades) was that Hitler had to approved the award. Since the KC was his invention, and every upgrade followed his need for continuous reward of Germany's Heroes. So, if the intended recipient had somehow of a "bad" reputation (from the point of view of Hitler), them it was harder to achieve it.

Mad Volksdeutscher · Post by **Mad Volksdeutscher** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:24 pm

Rudel's a good example of a Luftwaffe ace that didn't step on anybody's toes back before V-E day, as between his astounding point count/kill totals and keeping his mouth shut, he managed to get one of what was supposed to be the 12 (and only 12) Golden Oakleaves awards well prior to what was supposed to have been its award date.

(The reg as written under Fuerherbefehl stated that after the German victory, exactly 12 KC's with Golden oakleaves, swords & diamonds were to be awarded to KC holders with OL, Sw. & Diamonds already who were essentially "the best of the best". Since Rudel managed to pert-near max out his score under the LW point system, one got handed out a bit early.)

2 other scarce German Iron Cross related awards were the 1939 Grand Cross (fatboy Goering got one right away, gee I wonder why?

) which was only awarded once...and the Star to the 1939 Iron Cross, which was never awarded, though a couple examples were made.

The Star to the Iron Cross was one of the scarcest grades of that award, with only ONE ever being awarded--the original 1813 pattern, FWIW, to Field-Marshall Blucher for services rendered during the Napoleonic wars.

Hawk · Post by **Hawk** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:52 am

Mad Volksdeutscher wrote:The Star to the Iron Cross was one of the scarcest grades of that award, with only ONE ever being awarded--the original 1813 pattern, FWIW, to Field-Marshall Blucher for services rendered during the Napoleonic wars.

The Star of the Grand Cross (Bluchersten) was, as you said, awarded to Blucher in the 1813 war. But it was used again in the First World War, as the Hindenburgstern, which was awarded to Hindenburg.

Mad Volksdeutscher · Post by **Mad Volksdeutscher** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:31 pm

I thought Hindenburg only got the Grand Cross.....

Hawk · Post by **Hawk** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:09 am

Mad Volksdeutscher wrote:I thought Hindenburg only got the Grand Cross.....

He was awarded the Star of the Grand Cross on March 24th, 1918 by teh Kaiser himself.

Feldgrau.net

Why did Gerd Barkhorn/and others not get the Diamonds

Why did Gerd Barkhorn/and others not get the Diamonds

Hans Joachim Marseille is the best fighter pilot of them all

.

BTT! Ooooooo-rah! : )