Luftwaffe vs Swiss air force?!

[Rolf Steiner]

Never heard of this before but it's interesting, if it's true... according to 1980s Sphere paperback by Will Berthold, around 1940, LW bomber went off course and violated Swiss airspace, the response being Swiss fighters (which were what?) giving it a bit of a hammering and said bomber having to make an emergency landing back home... true?!

[phylo_roadking]

I wouldn't doubt it; it happened far more often than you might think! From Wiki...

Nazi Germany repeatedly violated Swiss airspace. During the Invasion of France, German aircraft violated Swiss airspace no fewer than 197 times. In several air incidents, the Swiss (using 10 Bf-109 D, 80 Bf-109 E fighters bought from Germany and some Morane-Saulnier M.S.406s built under license in Switzerland), shot down 11 Luftwaffe planes between 10 May 1940 and 17 June 1940. Germany protested diplomatically on 5 June 1940, and with a second note on 19 June 1940 which contained clear threats. Hitler was especially furious when he saw that German equipment was shooting down German pilots. He said they would respond "in another matter". On 20 June 1940, the Swiss air force was ordered to stop intercepting planes violating Swiss airspace. Swiss fighters began to instead force intruding aircraft to land at Swiss airfields. Anti-aircraft units still operated. Later, Hitler unsuccessfully sent saboteurs to destroy airfields.

[Beershark]

I wouldn't doubt it; it happened far more often than you might think! From Wiki...

Nazi Germany repeatedly violated Swiss airspace. During the Invasion of France, German aircraft violated Swiss airspace no fewer than 197 times. In several air incidents, the Swiss (using 10 Bf-109 D, 80 Bf-109 E fighters bought from Germany and some Morane-Saulnier M.S.406s built under license in Switzerland), shot down 11 Luftwaffe planes between 10 May 1940 and 17 June 1940. Germany protested diplomatically on 5 June 1940, and with a second note on 19 June 1940 which contained clear threats. Hitler was especially furious when he saw that German equipment was shooting down German pilots. He said they would respond "in another matter". On 20 June 1940, the Swiss air force was ordered to stop intercepting planes violating Swiss airspace. Swiss fighters began to instead force intruding aircraft to land at Swiss airfields. Anti-aircraft units still operated. Later, Hitler unsuccessfully sent saboteurs to destroy airfields.

Can we have more info. (espec. sources, please ) on your claim that Hitler sent saboteurs to destroy Swiss airfields.
This is, after all, an extraordinarily unlikely scenario, given the importance of Switzerland to ALL parties in WW2.

[bf109 emil]

a listing of German aircraft and crew interned in Switzerland in WW2

German Aircraft and crew
interned in Switzerland during WW2

Date = yy-mm-dd
C = Crashed
L = Landed
INT = Interned
KIA = Killed in Action
? = Fate unknown


Date Location C/L Type Fate Crew

1940

40-??-?? Zeithain nr. Riesa EL He 70 ? INT, code'WL-OBWH'
Any information available?
see picture


40-04-21 Basel/Birsfelden L Do 17Z 4 INT
40-05-16 Kemletten C He 111P 4 INT
40-06-01 Lignieres C He 111H 5 KIA
40-06-01 Oltingen C He 111 ?
40-06-02 Ursins b. Yverdon C He 111P 4 INT + 1 KIA, of KG55
40-06-08 Triengen b.Aarau C Bf 110 2 KIA
40-06-08 Nunningen L Bf 110 2 INT
40-09-11 Frauenfeld L Go 145A 1 INT
40-11-13 Willerzell C Do 17Z ?
40-11-22 Jüppen b.Döttingen L Bü 131B 1 INT

1941

41-03-18 Klingnau L Go 145A 1 INT
41-07-24 Dübendorf L Ju W34 4 INT
41-08-10 Biel/Bözingen L Fw 58B 2 INT
41-09-05 Basel/Birsfelden L Go 145A 1 INT
41-11-30 Basel/Birsfelden L Go 145A 1 INT

1942

42-03-25 Basel/Birsfelden L Ju W34 3 INT. aircraft code 'B'
42-07-25 Bern/Belpmoos L Bf 109F 1 INT
42-07-25 Bern/Belpmoos L Bf 109F 1 INT

1943

43-02-12 Bière L Go 145A 1 INT
43-03-05 Basel/Birsfelden L Bü 131A 1 INT
43-03-19 Samaden L Fi 156C 2 INT
43-03-19 Samaden L Fi 156C 2 INT
43-05-15 Basel/Birsfelden L Kl 35B 1 INT
43-10-21 Dübendorf L Ju 88C 4 INT, 'H' of JG54

1944

44-01-01 Moutier C Fiat RS14 2 KIA
44-02-05 Singen C Do 215 ?
44-02-06 Pruntrut CL Bf 110G,'VQ+KL' 2 INT
Due to snowstorm and lack of fuel
44-02-14 Andelfingen C Fiat CR42 1 INT
Due to heavy snowstorm
44-03-15 Dübendorf L Bf 110G 2 INT
44-03-29 Samaden L Bf 109G 1 INT
44-04-04 Bonfol b. Pruntrut L Bü 181 1 INT
44-04-26 Wienacht/St.Gallen C Ju 188 ?
44-04-28 Dübendorf L Bf 110G-4/R7 3 INT. of III./NJG 6. 'C9+EN'
pilot: Hptm. Johnen.
Plane was destroyed by the Swiss
in return the Germans delivered
12 new Bf109G's.
44-05-02 Basel/Birsfelden L Do 217N 3 INT
44-06-06 Baulmes b. Yverdon C Ju 52 5 KIA
44-06-14 Basel/Birsfelden L Bü 131 1 INT
44-07-16 Bern/Beundenfeld L Avia Fl 3 1 INT
44-07-19 Jaunpass C Bf 110 ?
44-07-27 Locarno L Caproni 148 2 INT
44-08-17 Benken/BL L Bü 181 1 INT
44-08-20 Bern L Bf 109G 1 INT
44-08-20 Bern L Bf 109G 1 INT
44-10-26 Ronwill/St. Gallen L Bü 181 1 INT
44-12-17 Affeltrangen L Bf 109G 1 INT

1945

45-03-26 Werthenstein C Bf 109G 1 INT
45-04-12 Bürglen/TG L Bü 181C 1 INT
45-04-18 Dübendorf L Bü 181 2 INT
45-04-20 Payerne L Bf 108B 3 INT
45-04-25 Dübendorf L Me 262A 1 INT
45-04-26 Dübendorf L Fw 44F 1 INT
45-04-26 Oberriet L Bü 181 1 INT
45-04-26 Oberriet L Bü 181 2 INT
45-04-27 Emmen L Bf 108D 4 INT
45-04-27 Dübendorf L Si 204D 4 INT
45-04-30 Dübendorf L Ju 88G 6 INT
45-05-07 Belp L Si 204D, 'DL-NT' 5 INT, aircraft was of the Mufti of
Jerusalem. The Mufti used the a/c
to flee to Switzerland.
45-05-08 Chur L Fi 156C 3 INT

sourcehttp://www.airwarweb.net/interned_german.php

[phylo_roadking]

Can we have more info. (espec. sources, please ) on your claim that Hitler sent saboteurs to destroy Swiss airfields.
This is, after all, an extraordinarily unlikely scenario, given the importance of Switzerland to ALL parties in WW2

Nine Nazi saboteurs were arrested on the 16th of June 1940 - in the midle of the "Swiss Blitz" - with large amounts of explosives destined for Swiss air bases. I don't know very much about the incident as yet, but they may not necessarily have been "German" - there were some VERY strong and active pro-Nazi organisations among the Swiss volkdeutsche

[Rolf Steiner]

Thanks for the info on this, gents. It's an aspect of the conflict I'd been pretty much unaware of. I think a few countries came to regret some of their previous aircraft sales - from what I remember a few Hurricanes ended up with Axis satellite forces? And am I completely confused here or did Germany let a few planes go to the soviets at some stage pre 1941?

[Florin]

Thanks for the info on this, gents. It's an aspect of the conflict I'd been pretty much unaware of. I think a few countries came to regret some of their previous aircraft sales - from what I remember a few Hurricanes ended up with Axis satellite forces? And am I completely confused here or did Germany let a few planes go to the soviets at some stage pre 1941?

The Romanian Royal Aeronautics (Aviatia Regala Romana) received 12 Hurricane Mk I from an order of 50. They were successfully used against Soviet airplanes.
Read more in this link:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/?article=752

Also in 1940 The United States sold fighter planes to Finnland, used successfully against VVS (Soviet Air Forces). In this case, however, the seller wanted to be used against Soviet Union. It just happened that Soviet Union turned from a "bad guy" to a "good guy", but the planes were still in the hands of the Finns. Before delivery the US Navy stripped the planes from their machine guns, so the Finns had to figure out a replacement.

I think you are right about German planes sold to Soviet Union sometime in 1939...1941, but they were not the best and not the most recent.

[TPMM]

44-04-28 Dübendorf L Bf 110G-4/R7 3 INT. of III./NJG 6. 'C9+EN'
pilot: Hptm. Johnen.
Plane was destroyed by the Swiss
in return the Germans delivered
12 new Bf109G's.

That's a story!
This particular plane was equipped with some of the most advanced German radio&radar devices. Germans were very determinate not to let them fall into Allied hands, and British services in Swiss were eager to put their hands on at least one piece of those. Eventually, Swiss made an agreement with Germans - all of those devices were collectively (by a mixed German-Swiss commission) destroyed. For a chance of keeping their secrets safe Germans paid 12 brand new Messerschmitts.

By the way: Swiss were hunting the German bombers not only with purchased planes, but also with own (semi-own?) designs. Just try to google planes like DoFlug D-3800, 3801, 3803 and so on.
DoFlug was a part of Dornier Flugzeugwerke AG before the war.

Pozdrawiam,
TPMM

[TPMM]

Thanks for the info on this, gents. It's an aspect of the conflict I'd been pretty much unaware of. I think a few countries came to regret some of their previous aircraft sales - from what I remember a few Hurricanes ended up with Axis satellite forces? And am I completely confused here or did Germany let a few planes go to the soviets at some stage pre 1941?

Polish planes are a good example either. However, the case is slightly different: we were selling planes to other countries, when our own ranks needed replacements badly. Well, isn't money a true nerve of war?

Just to start with:

PZL P.43 Czajka, an export version of PZL P.23 Karas light bomber was being sold to Bulgaria just before the war. The planes were being completed in summer 1939, so some of them reached Bulgaria taking off from free Poland, and some were delivered after the September Campaign by the Germans. 8 were destroyed during the campaign, because they were seized and used by Polish Air Force.

PZL P.24 Super P fighters were being delivered in 1939 to various countries, like Romania, Greece and Turkey. When the war had started, they had a lot of them. We - only one.
Germans have captured some more-or-less completed P.24s and used them in propaganda films as "Polish fighter planes".

I may try to expand the list if you wish me to.
Pozdrawiam,
TPMM

[Florin]

. . . . . . PZL P.43 Czajka, an export version of PZL P.23 Karas light bomber was being sold to Bulgaria just before the war. The planes were being completed in summer 1939, so some of them reached Bulgaria taking off from free Poland, and some were delivered after the September Campaign by the Germans. 8 were destroyed during the campaign, because they were seized and used by Polish Air Force.

PZL P.24 Super P fighters were being delivered in 1939 to various countries, like Romania, Greece and Turkey. When the war had started, they had a lot of them. We - only one.
Germans have captured some more-or-less completed P.24s and used them in propaganda films as "Polish fighter planes".

I may try to expand the list if you wish me to.
Pozdrawiam,
TPMM

The P24E sold to Romania were useful, did their minor contribution, but were the most obsolete planes available to Romanian Royal Aeronautics in 1941. After the siege of Odessa in summer of 1941 the Romanians considered these planes as not fit for battle and relegated them to the role of advanced trainer.

Considering all the sales Poland did for money, they weakened the Polish air force, but it would not make a difference in front of 4000 planes owned by Luftwaffe. Add to these 4000 the Soviet planes, after their treacherous stabbing in back.
Also, you cannot blame the Polish leadership too much.
Poland and Germany were in a kind of "cold war" since 1919...1920, and each side became accustomed with the situation, the same way we had become accustomed to live our daily life under nuclear threat.
Most of the world expected that Hitler will stop after swallowing the Czechoslovakia, after the failed expectation that he will stop after the Munchen agreement. When things started to heat up in summer around Danzig, the succession of events occurred too fast, beyond control.

[TPMM]

Whatever would we have done, we were simply to weak to stop the German invasion, left alone the Soviet back-stab.
I meant only to show, that we had also our own example of selling aircraft to our enemies-to-be. Question: "why" would open a long and sad topic. For example: Polish Staff and policy makers believed, that Romania was still our ally, according to the treaty of 1921. So, we were sure that we were selling aircraft to a friendly state.
No, Florin, I'm not saying, that we were betrayed or so. The matter is a little bit more complicated, isn't it?

By the way - in Polish books it is common, that IAR.80 is said to had been designed basing upon the design of P.24E. How true is that statement, Florin?

[Florin]

.............For example: Polish Staff and policy makers believed, that Romania was still our ally, according to the treaty of 1921. So, we were sure that we were selling aircraft to a friendly state.
No, Florin, I'm not saying, that we were betrayed or so. The matter is a little bit more complicated, isn't it?

By the way - in Polish books it is common, that IAR.80 is said to had been designed basing upon the design of P.24E. How true is that statement, Florin?

The remains of the Polish Army withdrew through Romania and arrived in Great Britain to fight another day. The Polish gold was evacuated through Romania and reached Great Britain. The Polish civilians who were refugees to Romania were not given to the Germans even after Romania became a member of the Axis, and some of them did not return to Poland and were still living in Romania in early 1990's. Romania's prime minister, Armand Calinescu, was shot dead in open street by pro-German guys for this overall attitude. Tell me what can be friendlier than that, for a small neutral country who could not afford to flex muscles like a "neutral" United States, for example.

Now, the part of the story less known : how Romania drifted to the Axis a year later. Every Western documentary remind how Red Army invaded Poland in September 1939 and later the Baltic states, but all magically "forget" that on June 26, 1940 Red Army occupied in one night a fifth of Romania. It was with no previous hostile political statement and with no declaration of war. There was no fight between the two sides in the last 16 years. The local Romanian troops, surprised and facing a whole motorized/armored army, were not useful that night. Next night the king’s counsel decided to not declare war to Soviet Union. Soviet Union in that moment was a good friend of Germany. The Romanian politicians discovered that they bet on a system of alliances all collapsed: with France, Czechoslovakia and with Poland. Meanwhile Romania’s neighbors, Hungary and Bulgaria, bet on the right poker card: Germany. So Germany forced Romania into treaties to give land to her old friends from WWI. The alternative was annihilation. Having lost in the process a half of the territory, the morale in what was left from Romania was desperate.

But that was not enough to turn toward the Axis. The problem was that Stalin wanted more. He was elated by the easiness of his grabbing of a fifth of Romania. Now he had shown clear intention to advance to the line of the Carpathian Mountains. But suddenly his good friend Hitler became upset. If the Russians will go further, they will get too close to his dear Romanian oil. So suddenly Germany became the only defender, and a strong one, of the existing status quo for what was left of Romania. So Romania turned toward Axis for protection, like a looted store owner asking protection to the Mob.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
To say that IAR 80 was designed based on upon the design of P24E is exaggerated. Compare the photos of the two planes, from any angle: how close do they look to you? For a correct approach, remember that Poland not only sold planes, she sold manufacturing technologies and licenses. The Romanians used these technologies for the part of the IAR-80 covered with canvas. They adapted their available drawings for the rudder and tail of P24E to integrate them into the IAR 80. That was because there was an acute sense of emergency, and the project was going into a rush, after a delay of two years caused by inept politicians.

[TPMM]

I didn't mean to insult neither You, nor Romania, Florin

That is why I meant writing "complicated". The Romanian state was forced to act against Polish citizens in 1939 by the III Reich. Romanian citizens did much help to us, especially to our fighter pilots that later flew in the Battle of Britain and so on. On the other hand: Polish government was being kept in Romania throughout the whole of the war. And this is the fate of middle-sized countries: we do, what we can, but we're often forced to do something we don't want to.
My mistake, I could have written it straightforward. I do understand your view: I, also, hear all the time: "Poland did, Poland didn't" - without taking the circumstances into consideration. The same matter might be with "Axis+Romania", mightn't it?

***
By the way: thanks to You, at least 2 Polish-made planes (PZL P.23 Karaś) are said to have taken part in the Battle of Stalingrad. Or, maybe even more. You may correct me, but Romanian army did use quite a lot of our equipment taken from Polish units, that were disbanded on the border in 1939, didn't it? (Yes, it would have been quite ridiculous not to use it in case of incoming war.)

***
Thanks for your explanation about P.24/IAR 80. So - a part of Romanian plane was based upon Polish fighter.

***

Hm, we've drifted a bit from the Swiss Air Force, don't you think?

Pozdrawiam,
TPMM

[Florin]

......................By the way: thanks to You, at least 2 Polish-made planes (PZL P.23 Karaś) are said to have taken part in the Battle of Stalingrad. Or, maybe even more. You may correct me, but Romanian army did use quite a lot of our equipment taken from Polish units, that were disbanded on the border in 1939, didn't it? (Yes, it would have been quite ridiculous not to use it in case of incoming war.)

***
Thanks for your explanation about P.24/IAR 80. So - a part of Romanian plane was based upon Polish fighter.
.........................

Hi Pozdrawiam,

I am not a historian, as my main profession. It is just a passion. Some other people may know better answers than me to your specific questions related to the participation of the Romanian Army in World War Two. Feel free to register into http://www.worldwar2.ro and ask what you want. Some other Polish gentlemen did before and generated quite interesting topics.
From these topics I learned that a modern Polish prototype with retractable wheels, low wing and radial engine intended to land to Romania to avoid capture, but it was shot down by mistake by a Polish AA battery. I also learned on that occasion that by September 1939 there was an even more advanced design in Poland, but only on the drawing board, for a plane with retractable wheels, low wing and in-line engine.

By the way, I personally consider that the Germans did a big mistake by turning the airplane factory located near Warsaw into a repair shop, instead of gearing up the manufacturing of German planes there. There is the feeling that the United States suffocated Germany with their industrial might, but many times the Germans did not make the best use of the resources available to them.
Regards,
Florin

[TPMM]

Hi again.

About Polish fighter planes:
The prototype, You may be writing about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL.55
The production was almost ready to be started:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL.50_Jastrz%C4%85b

By the way: "Pozdrawiam" is used at the end, for the beginning You may use "witam".