Germans Best Air Ace

German Luftwaffe 1935-1945.
Mark C Yerger
Author & Moderator
Posts: 688
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 6:54 pm
Location: PA

Post by Mark C Yerger »

I was always told Rudorffer's claims were inflated, many probables added as confirmed. For time available flying (out for many months with a broken back) in combination with score, sorties flown, etc, Rall rates best.

Mark
Erich
Enthusiast
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 6:16 am
Location: Oregon

E.Rudorffer

Post by Erich »

yes Mark, Erich's claims in Russia seem to have been researched a little and he very well may have made claims of his wingman and others in his staffel as well as making several up with no eye witnesse's. His Me 262 claims are being studied as of present. Still an excellent fighter pilot.....

~E
Image
User avatar
Enrico Mölders
Supporter
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 8:15 am
Location: Deutschland

Post by Enrico Mölders »

Hi,

about the nightfighters we should not forget that their aircrafts were well equipped with the best of the best available at this time within the Luftwaffe.

Radarsystems, 20mm, 30mm even 37mm automatic guns, Schleudersitz ...

Their victims were in a very bad situation with almost no chance to survive if a nighfighter were on their track. Of course it were always a great danger of collision and it was hard to find an enemy if you can't see him with you own eys until they were just in the back of their victim.

The dayfighters on the other hand had to face an opponent which could outfly ( fighters ) or outgun ( bomberformations ) their opponents so I still think the dayfighters did the more difficult job.

bye enrico
' ... zu bedauern die Nation die Helden benötigt ! ' Berthold Brecht
Erich
Enthusiast
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 6:16 am
Location: Oregon

Nachtjagd

Post by Erich »

correction Enrico, the Nachtjagd a/c were never armed with the 3.7cm weapons

~E
Image
User avatar
jerijerod
Supporter
Posts: 174
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2003 5:17 pm
Location: Kent England
Contact:

The Father of all the Luftwaffe

Post by jerijerod »

Hi guys,
I agree with you that Marsaille, Hartmann and Rudel were excellent pilots and were very brave men who all deserve credit.
I would like to put forward another candidate.....Werner Molders.
My opinion is a little coloured as I am a big fan of Molders and his abilities.
All I am going to say is that he designed the sucessfull tactics like the Rotte and Schwarm flying formations and was a keen fighter pilot scoring in Spain, Poland, France, Russia (unofficially) and over Britain.
This is all really impressive when you take into account that Molders sufferred from chronic air sickness and had to overcome it, he also had to deal with his own injury at the same time as the loss of his brother Victor.(although he had only been captured.)
He was also a great commander and friend to his men and very popular although he was a quiet unassuming man.
Hope this helps the arguement.
Cheers
Chris
"War ist die Royal Air force???"

"Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you over estimate their chances!"
M. Reising
New Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 9:05 pm

Luftwaffe's best "ace"

Post by M. Reising »

Hello everyone!

Am a newcomer and would like to join in...

Agree with those that feel that Marseille was the best, in a class by himself. Daring, willingness to take on huge odds, superlative flying skills and an expert marksman.

With regards to aerial marksmanship, Hartmann, Rall and Rudorffer were also superb. Sorry, Erich and Mark, but I believe that Rudorffer was just that good, did score huge multiple victories against the Allies over Tunisia and against the Soviets. Those 13 x victories achieved in 17 minutes in November, 1943, were all - I believe - up to date Soviet fighters.

Also, everyone, don't forget the aces who performed near miracles and
scored heavily against the USAAF and RAF over Normandy - Emil Bully" Lang of JG 26, Robert "Bazi" Weiss of JG54 and Theodor Weissenberger of JG 5. Against overwhelming odds, Lang acheived nearly 30 victories that summer, Weiss 18 and Weissenberger 25. The Allies had virtual supremacy of the air and yet these three continued to fly, score, survive with the odds to heavily stacked against them.

Last of all, don't forget the Kampfflieger Asse, the Bomber "Aces". Saw a couple of entries in which some names were mentioned. Did not get nearly the recognition or awards that the fighter aces, or even Stuka aces, received. Though they did not shoot down large numbers of Allied aircraft, several bomber aces wrought real havoc with Allied ground forces and with the Allies supply lines!

JU 88 "Ace" Werner Baumbach and his crew were responsible for sinking some 300,000 BRT of shipping in 1940-42. JU 88 Ace Joachim Helbig sent some 180,000 BRT to the bottom of the Mediterranean. JU 88 Ace Ernst Fach, over the Soviet Union, destroyed 216 Locomotives, 8 large bridges and 19 tanks. Many JU 88, HE 111, DO 17/217, FW 200 Aces with huge scores.

Get site for all of the Jagdflieger - fighter pilot - enthusiasts is Petr Kacha's Luftwaffe Page. Just type Petr Kacha and you'll have it pretty quick. Check it out.

M. Reising [/i]
Erich
Enthusiast
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 6:16 am
Location: Oregon

Post by Erich »

Erich R was an excellent pilot as I have stated though some of his claims are unsubstantiated. By the way check the credits for friend Petr's site out.......yes I have helped him with numerous day and night fighter bio's and he still has some bogus info he needs to glean out. Great site nonetheless, as it was the reason I first helped him. It had and still does have enourmous potential.

Horrido !

~E
Image
Gizmo
New Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 2:14 am
Location: PL

Post by Gizmo »

I would like to add JG26's pilots:
-Joachim Muncheberg (135 victories including 102 in West, also JG 51 pilot in Eastern front and JG77 pilot in African theater ),
- Josef Priller ( 101 victories, all claimsover Western front).

Both were very good commanding officers. A lot of their claims are confirm in Allied documentation.

For exemple :
29th April 1942 one of the best Polish pilot, Marian Pisarek (commander of of the 1st Polish Fighter Wing (303rd, 316th, and 317th Squadrons, 12 confirmed, 1 probable, and 2 demaged aircraft) was shot down by Htpm. Joachim Muncheberg.
Sebastian Pye
Enthusiast
Posts: 405
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2002 5:32 am
Location: Sweden, Västerås
Contact:

Post by Sebastian Pye »

The thing that is so special with Rudorffer and Baer(they had remarkable similarites in their careers), is that they could handle every theatre, shot down many heavy bombers and also were the leading jetaces.

Most pilots couldnt handle transfers to other fronts.

(source Luftwaffe fighter aces by Mike Spick)
User avatar
Benoit Douville
Contributor
Posts: 360
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2002 2:50 pm
Location: Montréal

Post by Benoit Douville »

Erich Hartmann was the "Blonde Knight of Germany".

The thought of an aviator actually downing 80 planes was totally unimaginable in the early days of aerial combat. When the Red Baron did that in World War I many people thought it was a record that would never be broken. With the outbreak of World War II, the seemingly unattainable 80 kills soon fell by the way side as German pilots reached totals of over 100kills.

The first pilot to reach this lofty goal of 100 kills, was German ace Werner Molders. He managed to down 101 planes before he himself died in a plane crash. Many German pilots reached the 100 kill level, 15 reached 200 or more, and 2 scored 300 or more aerial victories. Of these two, only one pilot in history reached the lofty goal of 352, Erich Hartmann.

Erich Hartmann did fly nearly all of his missions against the Russians on the Eastern Front, but he also flew against the Americans over Rumania, downing 6 P-51D Mustangs. He is also rumored to have downed several Hurricanes and Spitfires, which were flown by Russian pilots.

Hartmann began his career with the Luftwaffe at the young age of 18. He reported to JAG 52 on the Eastern Front in October of 1942, at just 20 years old. He began flying missions but did not record his first kill until his 19th combat mission, where it's reported he downed an IL2 "Stormovik".

His kill total did not start to climb until the summer of 1943. In July of that year he downed 23 planes, 49 more in August, and then 24 in September. These are impressive numbers due to the fact that he took a months leave during this time frame, making these numbers really stand out. By the end of 1943 his kill total had reached 159 and he was awarded the Knights Cross in October for his exploits.

His total continued to climb during the winter of 1944, but not nearly as fast as it did during the summer before. The main problem was the German planes did not function well in the harsh Russian winters. The guns froze up and the engines would not start on cold mornings. A captured Russian aviator showed the Germans a couple of tricks that allowed them to not only start their planes but to keep the guns from jamming.

On March 2, 1944 he downed 10 planes in one day pushing his total over 200. That same day he was awarded the Knights Cross and Oak Leaves. The kill total kept climbing. He reached 250 and was awarded the Knights Cross, Oak Leaves, and Swords. Another big day came on August 24, 1944 when he had another 10 plane day and pushed his kill total to 301. At this time he was award Germany's highest honor, the Knights Cross, Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds. During his leave he married Ursula Paesch.

He was also grounded by Herman Goring at this time, but Major General Adolph Galland went to bat for the young ace and had him reinstated. But he was not to return to his former squadron, instead he headed back to school to learn to fly the ME-262 Jet fighter. This prospect of flying in JG-44,know as the Expert Squadron, did not appeal to the young pilot. He longed to return to his beloved JG-52 and do what he could for his country.

On his return, he faced the Russians until the end of the war. He also tangled with the American's over the oil fields of Rumania, he was to down 6 American Mustangs. The war was nearing it end now. His total kept climbing higher and higher. It finally stopped on May 8, 1945 when he took his final combat mission and downed his 352nd aircraft, a YAK7 fighter. Later that day he landed his plane and surrendered to the British forces in the area. His war was finally over.

He was turned over to the Russian's, part of a deal worked out between the allies. A war crimes trial followed and he was sent to a work camp in Russia. Finally after 10 1/2 years in the Russian prison system he was freed and he returned to Germany. At this time he was reunited with his wife and took a commission in the new German Air force where he served until the early 1970's.

The Soviets called him "The Black Devil of the South". But the world knows him as the "Greatest Ace of all Time".







Image

Image
User avatar
Sam H.
Associate
Posts: 644
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:39 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Post by Sam H. »

Curious, what was his "war crime"? Embarrising the Red Airforce?
Max-
Supporter
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2003 3:04 am

Post by Max- »

Hans-Joachim Marseilles' victory count may be a little inflated. He was a excellent shot, no doubt. He could pull off deflection shots even when performing complicated maneuvers. But he had a habit of firing a short burst at an enemy plane and then quickly rolling away to engage the next without confirming that he had destroyed the first. Due to his excellent marksmanship it can be said that most of the time he did destroy his targets.

Some historians say that his victory count of 158 should be realistically placed at about 130. If I recall, his record of 17 aircraft on one day was questioned as RAF records showed that they never lost that many machines on that date. He also had a habit of attacking enemy formations no matter the odds. This habit was dangerous and might have lead to his demise sooner or later, though we may never know.


Erich Hartmann is one of the best fighter pilots in history. Unlike Marseilles, he would weigh the odds and consequences before deciding to attack an enemy formation. He also did not bother with dogfighting; instead he would appear out of nowhere and close in to less than 50 meters ("when his target filled the windscreen") before firing. His tactics, and a bit of luck, also resulted in him surviving to fight even when hundreds of other experienced pilots were being shot down and killed. He got most of his kills in 1944 and 1945 when the Luftwaffe was having its back broken and was replenishing its downed Experten with young and poorly trained pilots.

"Few air forces have 352 aircraft to lose, let alone to a single man!"
User avatar
tigre
Patron
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:42 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Germans Best Air Ace

Post by tigre »

Hello to all :D; a complement...............................

Gerhard "Gerd" Barkhorn (March 20, 1919 - January 8, 1983).

Source: https://www.ea-militaria.com/die-wehrma ... -1944.html

Cheers. Raúl M 8).
Attachments
The Gruppenkommandeur of a Jagdgeschwader (II./ JG 52), awarded with the Oak Leaves Hauptmann Barkhorn achieved his 250th aerial victory on the Eastern Front on February 13, 1944....................
The Gruppenkommandeur of a Jagdgeschwader (II./ JG 52), awarded with the Oak Leaves Hauptmann Barkhorn achieved his 250th aerial victory on the Eastern Front on February 13, 1944....................
image081.jpg (60.04 KiB) Viewed 4392 times
Serás lo que debas ser o no serás nada. General José de San Martín.
Post Reply