Germans Best Air Ace

Christoph K · Post by **Christoph K** » Wed Jan 01, 2003 10:54 am

I just wanted to comment on who I thought was the Luftwaffe's best Ace during the war, At first I thought it was the Me 109 ace Gunther Rall, then I found the story of Ju 87 ace Hans Rudel. He was an amazing pilot, just think when he was still in pilot training his CO grounded him because of all the "incidents" he had, and at the end of the war he was the best pilot of them all! Anyway you guys are welcomed to post your comments I would like to here what you think.

Erich · Post by **Erich** » Wed Jan 01, 2003 11:57 am

Don't forget bomber and night fighter aces and also recon too

E

Douglas Aguiar · Post by **Douglas Aguiar** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 4:21 am

Hi Chris,

As Erich stated, there were aces in every branch of the Luftwaffe. The word "ace" is used since WWI to nominated any pilot who reach five kills or more - so the most common aces were the fighter pilots.

However during the WWII, appear what we could call aces, even without any kill. Their ability coulb be measured through the number of successful missions acomplished, for instance.

Just to name a few, I could named to you, for each branch of the Luftwaffe:

Jagdflieger (day fighter aces):
Erich Hartmann (352 kills) - All Time #1
Gerhard Barkhorn (301)
Günther Rall (275)
Otto Kittel (267)
Walter Nowotny (258)
Wilhelm Batz (237)
Erich Ruddorffer (224)
Heinz Bär (220)
Hermann Graf (212)
Theo Weissenberger (208)
Heinrich Ehrler (208)
Walter Shuck (206)
Hans Philip (206)

These are the guys who surpassed the "200 kills" mark. But there are others who also deserve to be mentioned:

Hans-Joachim Marseille (biggest ace over the Africa theater)
Egon Mayer (102)
Johannes Steinhoff (176)
Walter Krupinski (197)
Adolf Galland (104 - the General of the Fighters)
Werner Mölders (115)

and so on...

The Night fighters (Nachtjagdflieger) - justa few:

Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer (121 kills) - #1
Helmut Lent (I can remeber exactly but is 105+)
Prinz Su Sayn-Wittgenstein (84)
Werner Streib (68)
Hans Joachim Jabs (50)
Martin Drewes (52)
Wilhelm Herget (73)

The bomber aces (Kampfflieger):

Hans-Ulrich Rudel (over 2500 missons, 519 tanks, 1 battleship e hundred of vehicles destroyed, plus 9 aerial victories)
Joachim Helbig
Werner Baumbach
Bernard Jope
Dietrich Peltz
Dr. Ernst Küpfer
Theodor Nordmann
etc...

The list is huge. But I hope this can give you an idea of this subject.

Regards,

Douglas.

Christoph K · Post by **Christoph K** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 2:09 pm

Thanks guys, you are right the list is huge but I really meant the Germans best Overall Ace. Thanks again!

Christoph

koerner · Post by **koerner** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:55 pm

Moin da drüben !
I would say, since your asking for oppinions, that quite obviously Maj. Erich Hartmann was the best of them all.If you have read his biography you will know that he also had lots of obstacles along his way to becoming the highest scoring ace of history . You will also know that he stayed a great worrior by enduring the ten years of being a POW in the Soviet Union,after the war ended, in wich he never gave way to the torture and bribery attempts of his captors.He was also one of the few german pilots, that entered the new Luftwaffe,to have flown in
WWII .

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 5:12 pm

In my opinion... I think the best overall German ace would have to have been H.J. Marseilles. In two(?)years he downed 158 aircraft. Just think if he hadn't been killed on September 30, 1942...... he would have likely passed the 300 mark. And I've read elsewhere that on a mission he spent 15 rounds of ammunition to down an enemy aircraft. Has any other pilot achieved such an exploit? I do agree that Hartmann had a strong willpower and posessed great flying ability (I mean who flys inverted at 30 ft above the ground at high speed?), but I have to stick with my choice.. but hey... who listens to me anyways.

Douglas Aguiar · Post by **Douglas Aguiar** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:02 am

Hi Tony,

I´m listening you, believe me.

In fact, Marseille is considered the best of all, even between the WWII veterens, including Hartmann and Galland. We should remember that the "Star of Africa" achieved all his victories against Western Allies, whose pilots were much better than the Russians. I don´t know if he would pass tha 300 kills mark, but he surely would add 40 or 50 more, if he had survived.

Rudel was, without doubt, a very brave man. His achievements as a Stuka pilot and warrior are almost unbelieveble. Could you imagine a single man destroying more thna 500 tanks? However we can not forget that he was a "kill´em all nazi" up to the end of the war. After 1945 he was always a ultra-right wing guy, until his death in 1982. It is complicated, since he was a polite and nice guy to have a chat, according a guy that I knew who met him in late 70s.

Regards,

Douglas.

Apsynt · Post by **Apsynt** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 2:47 am

I'll stick with "Jochen". Marseille's recond of 17 in one day was beaten only once and that against inferior planes on Russian front.

Erich · Post by **Erich** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 6:15 pm

15 rounds to destroy an a/c is very impressive but German night fighter aces were able to beat that, one with only 3 2cm rounds from his twin 20 mm Schräg waffen against a Lancaster. His name is DK winner Bruno Rupp of NJG 3.

Apsynt · Post by **Apsynt** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 7:09 pm

You say that 2 rounds were used to down an aircraft but that hardly means anything is that was an one off score. Afterall Richtofen was downed by a single bullet during first war at one stage from an obscene range. That hardly indicated brilliant marksmanship but simply plain luck. Marseille averaged at his 15 rounds. He also had a knack for bagging multible kills in short periods of time

Date Times of Victories
15 Jun 42 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905
16 Jun 42 1902, 1910, 1911, 1913
17 Jun 42 1202, 1204, 1205, 1208, 1209, 1212
01 Sep 42 0828, 0830, 0833, 0839
01 Sep 42 1055, 1056, 1058, 1059, 1101, 1102,
1103, 1105
01 Sep 42 1846, 1847, 1848, 1849, 1853
03 Sep 42 0820, 0823, 0829, 1608, 1610, c.1611
06 Sep 42 1803, 1813, 1814, 1820
15 Sep 42 1751, 1753, 1755, 1757, 1759, 1800,
1802
26 Sep 42 0910, 0913, 0915, unk, 1656, 1659,
1715

Erich · Post by **Erich** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:05 pm

Impressive he was without a doubt. By the way I mentioned 3 rounds not two......Marseille was an excellent deflective shooter and also in no way can you limit the expertize of the German night fighter pilot. Simply put you guys that think several top
German day fighter aces are the top dogs need to read some other accounts of night fighter, bomber / ground attack and recon pilot and crews.

two cents, possibly for nothing........

E

Wurger · Post by **Wurger** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 6:49 am

I think Erich has a point - people tend too focus too much upon the day fighter aces when examining German pilot effectiveness. To fly ground attack or night interception missions required a level of courage, concentration, and skill that many of us armchair generals just fail to appreciate.

Regards,

Wurger

Douglas Aguiar · Post by **Douglas Aguiar** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 10:05 am

Erich and Wurger,

You are both correct. The day fighter aces have much more literature and expositioin than his partners from the Nachtjagdwaffe.

I just finished the autobigraphical book written by Martin Drewes, Oakleaves winner and ace (52 victories) of the III/NJG 1. It is very interesting, mainly when he describes his tactics to shot down the night bombers of the RAF. He usually shot the aircraft, in the right wing, between the motors where the gasoline steam inside the empty compartiments simply needed few shots to start a fire. He liked to use the Schrag Musik cannons to do it.

Besides him, many night fighter aces managed to achieve multivictories during the same night: Martin Becker, Heinz Rökker and Schnauffer are among them.

Regards,

Douglas.

Sebastian Pye · Post by **Sebastian Pye** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:58 pm

I agree marseille was the best, then came Heinz Baer and Erich Rudorffer on shared second place.

Rudel was surely a great pilot but he must also have been EXTREMELY lucky.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:42 pm

I have to agree with you Sebastian on Erich Rudorffer.. I mean who shoots down 13 Russian aircraft in 17 minutes?!
cheers

Feldgrau.net

Germans Best Air Ace

Germans Best Air Ace

aces ......

Best aces

Erich Hartmann !!!!

H.J. Marseille

Night fighter aces