2 Dec. 1942, Western Mediterranean

German Luftwaffe 1935-1945.
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Enrico Cernuschi
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2 Dec. 1942, Western Mediterranean

Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Hello Gentlemen,

on 2 Dec. 1942 morning some Ju 88 attacked and sunk the british destroyer Quentin.
I would like to know any detail available about this action: the timing, what was the appreciation of the results by the planes, how many ships did they sight, what was their KG, one or more waves, when did they leved, if there was a rection. In a word everything.

Thank you very much for any help.

EC
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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

A further detail. Some sources said that German torpedo-bombers attacked HMS Quentin too that morning.
Is any info (time, ships sighted and appreciation of results) available about this torpedo-bomber attack?

An hopefully

EC
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Post by cpa95 »

Hi,

according to Playfair, Vol. IV, p. 204, destroyer QUENTIN was sunk by a torpedo-bomber on the return passage to Bone shortly after daybreak on 2.12.1942. During the last night, the Force Q (cruiser AURORA, ARGONAUTM SIRIUS an destroyers QUIBERON and QUENTIN) had an engagement in the street between the western end of sicily and the northern Tunisian coast. Arround 12.30 am it sunk the german convoy K.T. 1 with 7.800 tons and from the escorts the italian destroyer FOLGORE.

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Thomas
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Post by cpa95 »

Hi,

according to Fechter-Hümmelchen, the QUENTIN was sunk at 06.30. am, 10 sm and directly north of Tabarka.

Force Q was sighted by a german recon-aircraft on 10.40 pm., 1.12.1942 before crossing the gap between the italian minefields S 91-94 and S 96,97 (1170 sea-mines). Force Q begun the attack on the convoy at 00.35 am, FOLGORE sunk at 01.35 am.

KT1 (850 BRT): 00.39 am
Aventino (3794 BRT): 01.00 am
Puccini (2411 BRT): 03.00 pm
Aspromonte (976 BRT): 01.29 am

Regrads
Thomas
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Thank you Thomas.
Do you know what the German planes sighted and when?

A more and more curious Enrico
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Post by Andy H »

HMS Quintin (Lt.Cdr. A.H. Noble, DSC, RN) was sunk by a torpedo from an Italian aircraft in Western Mediterranean in position 37.40N, 08.55E. (Savoia S 79sil from 130 Gruppo Regia Aeronautica)

From UBoat.net

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Post by Andy H »

Admiral AB Cunningham in his autobio 'A Sailors Odessey' mentions the loss of the Quentin

"..but on the way back to Bone in the early dawn the Quentin was sunk by a torpedo from an enemy aircraft. Most of her crew were rescued by HMS Quiberon under heavy bombing"

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Post by Andy H »

A report of this engagement follows, taken from a narrative written by Commander Hugh Browning RN. CO of Quiberon.
Attack by Allied cruiser and destroyer force on Italian convoy bound for Tunisia,

December 1942.

HMAS Quiberon followed the cruiser into the attack. At 0055 ( 12.55 AM ) I sighted a destroyer of the Sirio Class emerging from a smoke screen on my port beam and turning to fire torpedoes; I left the line and closed at 26 knots.

Fire was opened at about 5,000 yards and the second salvo was observed to hit forward of the after superstructure. Successive salvoes also hit under the funnel and just abaft it.

Enemy salvoes fell just astern and on the starboard quarter. At 0059 ( 12.59 AM ) the enemy, badly damaged, turned to starboard and was hidden by the smoke screen.

At 0101 ( 1. 01 AM ) two "E" boats appeared out of the smoke, then about 2,500 yards away, and attacked with torpedoes. I turned hard astarboard and torpedoes were observed to pass down my port side , uncomfortably close.

2. I realised that unless I rejoined the line I might be taken for an enemy destroyer and subjected to the intensely accurate fire of HMS Aurora. I endeavoured to rejoin without fouling the range and switched on my Type 252. At 0107 ( 1. 07 AM ) I passed a Troopship badly afire and fired at her, probably unnecessarily, as she was obviously sinking. This ship was observed to sink. About 1000/1500 troops were in the water shouting for help. I judged them to be Italians.

I succeeded in rejoining astern of HMS Quentin at 0110 ( 1.10AM )

At 0112 ( 1. 12 AM ) sighted another Troopship on fire, but not badly; HMS Quentin and HMAS Quiberon finished her off, and she was observed to sink, Semi Armour Piercing shell were used and some went right through the ship without bursting.

At 0133 ( 1. 33 AM ) another destroyer was sighted lying on her side; fire was opened at 2,000 yards approximately and two hits were observed. It is not known whether this ship sank. HMS Sirius finished off yet another destroyer with one salvo which set her afire from end to end.

3. The total bag observed by HMAS Quiberon was three destroyers ( in fact only 2 sank, my notation ) and four Merchant Ships, of which two are known to have been Troopships. It is not known whether any "E" Boats were sunk or damaged, but I do know that HMAS Quiberon did not hit any.

4. At 0636 ( 6. 36 AM ) one torpedo bomber attacked from the port side of the line and torpedoed HMS Quentin.

HMAS Quiberon circled HMS Quentin once, then signalled for information as to whether the ship could steam. Reply was ship could not steam but would remain afloat for a little time.

5. As more enemy aircraft were heard and seen I decided to carry out Rear Admiral Commanding 12th. Cruiser Squadron's verbal instructions and endeavour to " Cut our losses." I proceeded alongside HMS Quentin and ordered her to " Abandon Ship."

I was alongside for about 8/10 minutes, it seemed longer, and was subjected to cannon fire and bombs. I decided that I could stay no longer, and went full astern as another pair of aircraft attacked.

The bombs fell where my forecastle had been and exploded under my bow.

6. I had hoped to make sure of sinking HMS Quentin, but finally decided that I must try and get my ship into harbour; especially as I had over 400 men in my ship at the time.

I was aided in this decision by the thought that the enemy aircraft, which had become bolder as they realised my guns were not High Angle, would undoubtedly sink HMS Quentin; this is what I believe to have happened, as aircraft were observed bombing her for at least 10 minutes after I had left. This was of great assistance to me as it halved the weight of attack on this ship. Had HMS Quentin been sunk, it is unlikely that HMS Quiberon woud have got away unscathed except for some minor damage.

7. There were seven determined attacks on HMAS Quiberon after she left HMS Quentin and I was pleased to see that our fire was very accurate and time and again the Dive Bombers were turned away at the last minute, and either jettisoned their bombs or made no other attempt.

The method of attack was the usual type, one bomber would endeavour to draw the fire when almost out of range, and the other would come in diving, hoping that the Olerlikons would be caught with empty pans. Luckily this ruse had been encountered before, and the gun's crews were not caught out by it. Two aircraft were seen to be hit but I regret none were observed to crash. In all, there were ten attacks made by two or three aircraft together.

8. HMAS Quiberon evaded most of the bombs by a quick turn at the last minute after bombs had been released and only a few fell close.

This was due to the magnificent work by my Engineering Officer who gave me 320 revolutions ( 33 knots ) in a ship already overdue for boiler cleaning and decoking, at about three minutes notice.

9. HMAS Quiberon arrived at Bone at 0915 ( 9. 15 AM ) and secured alongside HMS Sirius, who took care of the survivors. Eight Officers ( including the Commanding Officer ) and one hundred and seventy Ratings were taken off HMS Quentin.

10. It is a matter of deep regret that I was unable to remain alongside a few minutes more and bring off the four or five who were left, but I must point out that these Officers and Ratings had in all cases gone below to pack, in spite of my frenzied efforts to get them onboard my ship. ( I cannot imagine how anyone might be so foolish as to give up the chance of survival to go and gather a few personal possessions. )

11. As a result of the night action and the action against enemy aircraft, I wish to recommend the following Officers and Ratings for decorations. The names are not shown in order of merit, but the attached forms are numbered in order of merit.

Hugh Browning

Commander. Royal Navy.

This Commanding Officer of HMAS Quiberon died in England in February of 1997
http://www.royal-navy.org/ran/content/view/17/1/

Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Thank you, but I believe the history was a slightly different one and what I would really need is the German version of the air attack (or attacks).

EC
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Post by Andy H »

Enrico Cernuschi wrote:Thank you, but I believe the history was a slightly different one and what I would really need is the German version of the air attack (or attacks).

EC
Hi Enrico

Other than the Italian Sqn mentioned in the UBoat net article, do you have any idea what other Axis air assets were involved?

Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
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Post by Andy H »

Both Bragadin and Greene/Massignani mention that the Quentin was lost to German aircraft but give no further detail. Other publications just state Axis aircraft.

You could contact UBoat.net to find out where they obtained there info on the Italian Sqn the've given claim to the sinking.

Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Well, the 130° Gruppo Italian torpedo bombers leaved at 8.30 AM only from the Sardinia fields when HMS Quentin was lost two hours earlier. They didn't launch a single torpedo that day so, wherever the U boat net boys founf that info it's whortless.

The real problem is to discover:

which German Air Force attacked (Torpedo bombers; bombers or both)?

At what time?

What did they sight: the two destoroyers? The three cruisers too?

What was their appreciation of the raid?

A furhter detail would be very important too. Did the German float planes of the XIII SBK recovered the last party "forgotten" on the Quentin?

I know that it's quite a lot of questions, but I grant I could deliver you, if these last particoulars are settled, quite an interesting and unknown history, almost unbelieving, but real and based on appartently contradictory PRO documents. :[]

Bye

EC
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Post by Lorenz »

For EC:

I did some research in my resources but I could not determine which Luftwaffe units made the 3 December attack. II./KG 26 reported the loss of one Heinkel on 3 Dec 42, but there is no information in the Schmidt book as to how that occurred. I think only in the A.I.4/AIR 40 archives in London would one find that information.

As for 6. Staffel/KG 26 on the morning of 3 August 1942 in the Black Sea, 10 Heinkels flew the torpedo attack through very heavy defensive fire from the cruisers and their destroyer escort. Two or three torpedo hits (zwei bis drei Treffer) were observed, some on the cruisers and some on the destroyers (teils auf dem Kreuzer, teils auf Zerstörern). Nothing more could be achieved because the defensive fire put up by the Soviet warships was too intense for a textbook torpedo attack. These results were later confirmed by Luftwaffe reconnaissance aircraft. Two Heinkels and their crews were lost during the attack. This is all from the KG 26 after-action report.

[Schmidt, Rudi. Achtung - Torpedos los! Der Strategische und Operative Einsatz des Kampfgeschwaders 26. pp.148-49, 353].

--Lorenz
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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Thak you for your searches Lorenz,

HMS Quentin was lost, anyway, on 2 Dec. 1942 morning, some minutes past 6.30 AM, not 3 Dec.
The lack of German infos about this action persuade me that ther's something wrong with the traditional version.
Maybe they were bombers and not torpedo bombers, perhaps there was no attack at all.

Many thanks for the further infos about the Aug. 1942 action against Soviet warships too. You wrote morning. I presume, so, the attack happened after dawn. Is the right time available?

Sincerely

EC
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Post by Lorenz »

You wrote morning. I presume, so, the attack happened after dawn. Is the right time available?
Yes, the torpedo attack was carried out in bright sunlight during mid-morning on a beautiful summer's day.

--Lorenz
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