2 Dec. 1942, Western Mediterranean

German Luftwaffe 1935-1945.
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Andy H
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Post by Andy H »

HMS Quentin was lost, anyway, on 2 Dec. 1942 morning, some minutes past 6.30 AM, not 3 Dec.


Hi Enrico

Where did the 3rd appear? Everything I've read relating to your question stated the Quentin was sunk on the 2nd

Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
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cpa95
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Post by cpa95 »

Hi,

i have taken a look into the war diary of german "Seekriegsleitung", Vol. XL for Dec42, p.58:
...
The convoy escorted by 4 italian destroyers contacted a british cruiser group with destroyers during the night 1./2.12.1942 at 64°, 60 sm in front of Bizerta. The report came in on 02.00 am from Marinekommando Italien. The report was sent forward to Führerhauptquartier and OKW/WFSt immediatly.

The four transport vessels were lost, they transported nearly 2000 italian soldiers and important supply goods for the german units in Tunisia. An italian destroyer was also lost. The other convoy north of this position turned back to Trapani.

The cruiser group was sighted and immediatly attacked by german Luftwaffe in the early morning. One destroyer was sunk. The 3. Sfl. from Bizerta could not contact the british group.
...

According to Schmidt, the KG 26 had nearly 25 torpedo bombers at the beginning of December 1942 (later 40 planes after rebuilding the II./KG 26). I didnt found a report by Schmidt for the 2.12.1942.

Regards
Thomas
Das Studium der Tagesmeldungen der Heeresgruppen ist mühseliger als die Lösung eines Kreuzworträtsels (Guderian 4.2.45)
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Thank you Lorenz, now the Black Sea picture is much more clear.
Hoping in some furhter details about the Quentin case to settle that episode too.

Greetings

EC
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Hello Thomas,

according this new detail the British Division (the cruiser group) was still togheter in the morning. At that latitude the dawn was at 6.10 AM.
Some sources spoke about thirteen Ju 88 attacking the two destroyers Quentin and Quiberon. This coincides with the number of diving attack mentione by the Quiberon commander, but why no attacks against the quite bigger (and less difficoult as targets) cruisers sighted?
The only key would be to discover what German Air Force unit attacked and what did they see and claim. I think, by now, they were NOT torpedo bombers.

The more I study, the less I know (Goethe)

EC
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cpa95
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Post by cpa95 »

Hello Enrico,

that is very interesting, because the war diary of this day has one more report for the Mediterranean:

The SKL did not mention a torpedo attack, but ...
earlier for the 2.12.1942 is reported (on page 48 ), that "OB Süd brought 174 aircraft into action this day: 53 bombers, 55 fighters, 13 fighter-bomber and 28 recons. ... Near La Galite an allied destroyer was hit by an SC 500 bomb."

Is it possible, that this report is referring to the QUENTIN?

Regards
Thomas

EDIT: Playfair, IV, p. 206 reported the sinking of QUENTIN caused by a torpedo-bomber.

http://perso.orange.fr/cdasm.56/diction ... %201942%22

and: :D
http://www.diggerhistory2.info/post-war ... pter09.htm
http://www.royal-navy.org/ran/content/view/17/1/
http://members.fortunecity.com/rwbrown1 ... /id12.html
http://www.hmscavalier.org.uk/G78/
Last edited by cpa95 on Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
Das Studium der Tagesmeldungen der Heeresgruppen ist mühseliger als die Lösung eines Kreuzworträtsels (Guderian 4.2.45)
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Hello Thomas,

NOW things begin to settle. HMS Quentin was not lost by a torpedo bomber. Maybe it was a near miss bomb which can produce almost the same effect.
It would be necessary to know what plane (and which staffel or group)dropped that SC 500 bomb (It was 500 kg I presume) and, above all, to knaow what did they sight. The record of flights for 2 Dec. 1942 you were able to find (many thanks, indeed) seems an interesting one. It had to be a bomber as a JABO could carry a 500 kg bomb, of course, but so far and on the sea? I believe it's someway difficoult.

Maybe a last hurra and the story will be over.

Greetings

EC
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Post by Lorenz »

Enrico Cernuschi wrote:
Do you have the chance to know something about the German floatplanes and flying boats used for rescue service in the Mediterranean in Dec. 1942. In particolular did they recover any British sailors on 2 and 3 Dec. 1942 off La Galite Is. ? That would be the last piece of the puzzle.
I can tell you that a detailed list of all air-sea rescues carried out by 6. Seenotstaffel (Sicily) has appeared in either Flugzeug magazine or in Jet & Prop magazine sometime between 1986 and 2002. I do not have mine any longer so I can not look for the article. I understand that most of the records of 6. Seenotstaffel survived the war, so you might want to contact BA-MA in Freiburg.

--Lorenz
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Andy H
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Post by Andy H »

NOW things begin to settle. HMS Quentin was not lost by a torpedo bomber. Maybe it was a near miss bomb which can produce almost the same effect.
Hi Enrico

Why are you so convinced that it wasn't a torpedo but a bomb?

Lorenz has stated that a destroyer was hit by a bomb but there's no proof which ship it hit. It may have been a near miss on the Quiberon (The bombs fell where my forecastle had been and exploded under my bow) rather than the Quentin.

Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Well CY,

no Italian Torpedo bomber dropped anything that day;
no german torpedo bomber ever flow that same day.
No German MTB launched any torpedo that day
No Italian one too
No submarine (German, Italian or British), according Rhower, attacked or launched any target in that zone that day.

The Quentin accidend is not recorded in the Admiralty papers as a friend fire accident.

All that we have got is a sunk ship and a German theater command diary saying a bomber had obtiained, at least, a near miss.

2 + 2 = 4 I believe

About the HMS Quiberon Captain report I consider it a sort of literature, but not a serious proceeding. Anyway the Luftwaffe report of that same action would be the final word about this minor but interesting affair.

Bye

EC
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Hello Lorenz,

may you be so kind to give me the exact name and publisher of that magazine you quoted about the SBK activities?

Have you got an e-mail address of what I presume is the Bundesarchive you labelled as BA MA?

With renewed thanks

EC
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Hello Thomas,
the Stuka connection may be the decisive one. Perhaps is possible to discover the LW bomber land missions of that day finding, by exclusion, the author of HMS Quentin end.

A too much snooper

EC
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Lorenz
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Post by Lorenz »

Enrico Cernuschi wrote:Hello Lorenz,
may you be so kind to give me the exact name and publisher of that magazine you quoted about the SBK activities?
Have you got an e-mail address of what I presume is the Bundesarchive you labelled as BA MA?
With renewed thanks
EC
Flugzeug magazine was published by:
Flugzeug Publications GmbH. Thomas-Mann-Str. 3, Illertissen, Germany. Tel: 073 03/96 42 20.
I think they have been out of business since about 2001 or 2002, but you should try a letter or a telephone call anyway.

Jet & Prop magazine is published by Heinz Nickel Verlag in Zweibrücken. Here is the web site. On the Home Page, Jet & Prop is in the top row, first icon on the left. The editor, manager and chief of Jet & Prop in 2002 was an expatriate Englishman who has lived in Germany for 25+ years by the name of Rick Chapman. Heinz Nickel Verlag should be able to put you in touch with the magazine's editorial office.

http://www.vdmedien.de

--Lorenz
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cpa95
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Post by cpa95 »

Enrico Cernuschi wrote:Hello Thomas,
the Stuka connection may be the decisive one. Perhaps is possible to discover the LW bomber land missions of that day finding, by exclusion, the author of HMS Quentin end.
A too much snooper
EC
Hi Enrico,
sorry i dont know a source (war diaries or a unit history) for the StG 3.

Greetings
Thomas
Das Studium der Tagesmeldungen der Heeresgruppen ist mühseliger als die Lösung eines Kreuzworträtsels (Guderian 4.2.45)
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Post by Lorenz »

Sturzkampfgeschwader 3

I./St.G. 3
2 Dec 42: the entire Gruppe was back in Germany resting and refitting. It had no aircraft on this date.

II./St.G. 3
[extract].....
29 Nov 42: Ju 87D-3 (Trop) badly shot up by AA fire and crashed on return to Fp.Djedeida, 100%, 2 KIA.
2 Dec 42: said to have moved to Protville/23 km NNW of Tunis and then to Bizerte a week or so later.
2 Dec 42: Ju 87D-3 (Trop) shot down by a fighter over Tebourka (Tabarqah) on the coast near the Tunisian-Algerian border, 95%, Staffelkapitän Maj. Hans Einwächter + 1 KIA.
14 Dec 42: now based at Bizerte.

III./St.G. 3
[extract].....
24 Nov 42: now at Nofilia-North on the Gulf of Sirte along the route of retreat toward Tripoli.
15 Dec 42: a Ju 87D-1 and a D-3 blown up by German troops at Fp.Nofilia-North to avoid being captured by the enemy.

As you can see from the above, only the II. Gruppe is a possibility, but its participation in an attack on ships off the coast is extremely unlikely. At this time it was being used exclusively for ground support duties along the front to the west of Bizerta (Bizerte). III. Gruppe was in Libya and nowhere near Tunisia.

--Lorenz
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Andy H
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Post by Andy H »

Hi Enrico

Thanks for your response.

Enrico Cernuschi wrote:
The Quentin accidend is not recorded in the Admiralty papers as a friend fire accident.
What is recorded in the Admiralty papers?
All that we have got is a sunk ship and a German theater command diary saying a bomber had obtiained, at least, a near miss.
2 + 2 = 4 I believe
On the balance of evidence we have seen at present I would agree, but its not concrete.
About the HMS Quiberon Captain report I consider it a sort of literature, but not a serious proceeding. Anyway the Luftwaffe report of that same action would be the final word about this minor but interesting affair.
Obviously I dont know the circumstances of Quiberon's Captains report. However I would suggest that he spoke to the Captain or senior officers & men from the Quentin, and that if he hadn't seen the attack for himself he was reporting the sightings & experiences of the Quetins Officers & crew

Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
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