The Germans produced the PzKpfw.I Ausf C light tank for airborne use in 1942, at much the same time as the Me 321 heavy transport glider and Me323 Gigant heavy transport aircraft came into service. Was either aircraft ever test-flown with the light tank aboard?
Many thanks,
Sid.
Were the Me321 or Me323 ever flown with a light tank aboard?
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sid guttridge
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Wurger
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Gigant cargo
Sid,
Seeing as both the glider and powered versions of the Gigant regularly carried loads as heavy at the Panzer IV and the famed 88mm gun (along the half-track that towed it!), I would imagine that the light tanks you mentioned would have been carried at some point, although I couldn't name specific operations or tests in which they did. The Gigant was constructed in such a way that it could carry twice its own weight in payload. Unfortunately, such a cumbersome machine was a sitting duck unless the Germans had complete air superiority in its area of operations.
Regards,
Wurger
Seeing as both the glider and powered versions of the Gigant regularly carried loads as heavy at the Panzer IV and the famed 88mm gun (along the half-track that towed it!), I would imagine that the light tanks you mentioned would have been carried at some point, although I couldn't name specific operations or tests in which they did. The Gigant was constructed in such a way that it could carry twice its own weight in payload. Unfortunately, such a cumbersome machine was a sitting duck unless the Germans had complete air superiority in its area of operations.
Regards,
Wurger
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sid guttridge
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Hi Wurger,
I would seriously question whether the Me321 or Me323 could carry a PzKpfw.IV medium tank either by virtue of its weight or dimensions. The PzKpfw.I Ausf.C was about a third of the PzKpfw.IV's weight and it seems to me that even it would be pushing the limits of these aircraft.
Cheers,
Sid
I would seriously question whether the Me321 or Me323 could carry a PzKpfw.IV medium tank either by virtue of its weight or dimensions. The PzKpfw.I Ausf.C was about a third of the PzKpfw.IV's weight and it seems to me that even it would be pushing the limits of these aircraft.
Cheers,
Sid
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Robert Hurst
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Me 321 and 323
Hi Sid
According to 'The Warplanes of the Third Reich', by William Green, the Me 321 was capable of accommodating a PzKpfw IV tank, a self-propelled assault gun complete with crew, fuel and ammunition, or an 88 mm anti-aircraft gun with towing vehicle.
At least one Me 321A-1 during operational testing carried 120 troops, unfortunately the take-off rockets under one wing failed to ignite, the glider veering to starboard, its three Bf 110 towplanes colliding, and the entire "train" crashing to its destruction in a forest near the airfield boundary, 129 lives being lost.
Regards
Bob
According to 'The Warplanes of the Third Reich', by William Green, the Me 321 was capable of accommodating a PzKpfw IV tank, a self-propelled assault gun complete with crew, fuel and ammunition, or an 88 mm anti-aircraft gun with towing vehicle.
At least one Me 321A-1 during operational testing carried 120 troops, unfortunately the take-off rockets under one wing failed to ignite, the glider veering to starboard, its three Bf 110 towplanes colliding, and the entire "train" crashing to its destruction in a forest near the airfield boundary, 129 lives being lost.
Regards
Bob
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Jason Long
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I do not believe that any tanks were delivered by either the Me 321 or 323, but I can confirm that a number of Marder IIIs were delivered to North Africa by Gigants in '42-'43. The Panzer IV may well have actually fit inside their cargo compartment, but I doubt very seriously that the aircraft could be flown with one inside.
Jason
Jason
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sid guttridge
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Hi Robert,
William Green was arguably the leading aircraft researcher in the three decades after WWII. However, he is not infallible. As I understand it the Me321 could carry about 20 tons and the Me323 less than half that.
The difference is that the Me321 was towed by other aircraft whereas the Me323 had to rely on its own engines.
If memory serves me correctly the PzKpfw.IV was in the 25-30 ton bracket.
Cheers,
Sid.
William Green was arguably the leading aircraft researcher in the three decades after WWII. However, he is not infallible. As I understand it the Me321 could carry about 20 tons and the Me323 less than half that.
The difference is that the Me321 was towed by other aircraft whereas the Me323 had to rely on its own engines.
If memory serves me correctly the PzKpfw.IV was in the 25-30 ton bracket.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Jason Long
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Sid,
Green was _the Man_ in English for the Luftwaffe up until the '80s, but further research in the archives has revealed numerous errors. While Warplanes of the Third Reich is a very handy guide to German aircraft, it must be used with caution, especially the operational accounts which I formerly valued so much.
He had been superceded in most all respects by people like Jochen Prien, Peter Rodeike, Eric Mombeek, Don Caldwell, Robert Forsyth, etc. which is much less convenient and more expensive than Green's single volume.
Jason
Green was _the Man_ in English for the Luftwaffe up until the '80s, but further research in the archives has revealed numerous errors. While Warplanes of the Third Reich is a very handy guide to German aircraft, it must be used with caution, especially the operational accounts which I formerly valued so much.
He had been superceded in most all respects by people like Jochen Prien, Peter Rodeike, Eric Mombeek, Don Caldwell, Robert Forsyth, etc. which is much less convenient and more expensive than Green's single volume.
Jason
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sid guttridge
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Robert Hurst
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Hi Sid
With regard to your comment about the weight of the PzKpfw IV being between 25-30 tons, the actual weight of the PzKpfw IV varied according to the model being.
The weights of the various PzKpfw variants are as follows:
Ausf A: 18.4
Ausf B: 18.8
Ausf C: 19
Ausf D: 20
Ausf E: 21
Ausf F1: 22.3
Ausf F2: 23
Ausf G: 23.5
Ausf H: 25
Ausf J: 25
The source that I used for the above was 'Encyclopdeia of German Tanks of World War two', by Peter Chamberlain and Hilary L. Doyle.
In reality the weight of a PzKpfw IV would not prevent it being carried by the Me 321 Gigant. The real problem was that the Germans were not able to develop a suitable glider tug in time, the He 111Z-1 being the intended aircraft for this role. Also after using the Me 321 operationally on supply missions during the Russian Campaign, they realised that a motorised version would be better anyway.
Regards
Bob
With regard to your comment about the weight of the PzKpfw IV being between 25-30 tons, the actual weight of the PzKpfw IV varied according to the model being.
The weights of the various PzKpfw variants are as follows:
Ausf A: 18.4
Ausf B: 18.8
Ausf C: 19
Ausf D: 20
Ausf E: 21
Ausf F1: 22.3
Ausf F2: 23
Ausf G: 23.5
Ausf H: 25
Ausf J: 25
The source that I used for the above was 'Encyclopdeia of German Tanks of World War two', by Peter Chamberlain and Hilary L. Doyle.
In reality the weight of a PzKpfw IV would not prevent it being carried by the Me 321 Gigant. The real problem was that the Germans were not able to develop a suitable glider tug in time, the He 111Z-1 being the intended aircraft for this role. Also after using the Me 321 operationally on supply missions during the Russian Campaign, they realised that a motorised version would be better anyway.
Regards
Bob
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Jason Long
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The Me 321 was initially towed by a troika of Me 110 fighters. This was rather dangerous and many Me 110s were damaged or crashed during tow missions. The He 111Z didn't enter service until the summer of '42 and it seems that no more than a dozen were delivered. Dabrowski's Messerschmitt Me 321/323 is readily available from Schiffer if anyone wants more details on this aircraft.
Jason
Jason
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sid guttridge
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Robert Hurst
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Hi Sid
Just thought I'd let you know that since putting the photo of the Pz Kpfw 38(t) that I told you about, onto the thirdreichforum, I've been sent a colour photo of a 7.5 cm Pak 40/2 auf Fgst Pz Kpfw II (Sf) being loaded onto an Me 323 Gigant.
Unfortunately there is no other info to go with it. If I do find out anything else I will let you know.
Regards
Bob
Just thought I'd let you know that since putting the photo of the Pz Kpfw 38(t) that I told you about, onto the thirdreichforum, I've been sent a colour photo of a 7.5 cm Pak 40/2 auf Fgst Pz Kpfw II (Sf) being loaded onto an Me 323 Gigant.
Unfortunately there is no other info to go with it. If I do find out anything else I will let you know.
Regards
Bob
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sid guttridge
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Wurger
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Hello Sid,
Have you had a chance to read through Schiffer's book on the Gigant? Not the little 60 (?) page modeler's resource, but the hard cover that fully examines development and operations.
I flipped through it in a book store a number of years ago, but ended up buying something else on that visit. However, given the detail that is packed into most Schiffer books, I'm sure there would be some mention of cargo carried.
Just a thought . . .
Wurger
Have you had a chance to read through Schiffer's book on the Gigant? Not the little 60 (?) page modeler's resource, but the hard cover that fully examines development and operations.
I flipped through it in a book store a number of years ago, but ended up buying something else on that visit. However, given the detail that is packed into most Schiffer books, I'm sure there would be some mention of cargo carried.
Just a thought . . .
Wurger
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sid guttridge
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