"The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer

[Frederick L Clemens]

...Sajer's critics are angry because they expected the book to be true. It is obvious that this is a clash of differing expectations...

I am less concerned with Sajer being a real soldier or the story true, then with the depiction of the Wehrmacht, the war, and everything else being reasonably accurate. It could be clearly stamped as a novel and I would still find it less acceptable than a Sven Hassel adventure. The intial turning point for me was the pseudo-German names in the book. If Sajer had to make up names, at least he could have used real German names for the characters. It's like biting into a bratwurst and finding out it is made with sawdust.

Or like I said before, his character names sound like a Soviet writer's story set in the US Army where the main characters are named Private Jorn Smot and Sergeant Toom Juns.

.... how many of us would be able to accurately remember what we did 10-15 years ago? ...

How many of us publish our memoirs? It is the responsibility of an author selling his goods to be as accurate as possible, especially when specific dates and locations are claimed for specific episodes. When Sajer says this and that happened on 15 Jul 1942, I can forgive him if it was 16 Jul 1942 - I can say okay, if it was 15 Jun 1942, but I have every right to be angry if it was 23 Dec 1943.

My advice to Sajer is: "Get your story or your novel straight, soldier! Don't BS us with these dates and locations if you don't really remember!"

...All of them are better when it comes to giving a picture of life at the front, but it is hard to beat the popularity of "The Forgotten Soldier"....

Forgotten Soldier is the top dog due to the lack of competition for so long. Had other German war stories been translated, we might not even be talking about this one. There were hundreds of Der Landser stories that are better and more accurate than this book.

...The question on what reference works Sajer could have had access to was brought up earlier. Does anyone have an idea of what was published in French by the mid-50's? A lot on the war in France, I guess, but what about the Eastern Front?.

Sajer knew German fluently - if he was indeed was a GD member. His friggin life depended on it. I don't want to hear any more excuses about that - especially from any monolinguistic Neanderthals who might think knowing two languages is something only an astronaut could do. And for crying out loud - France was not on the moon! Unless this guy was living in a hole, he had access to anything published in Europe.

[John P. Moore]

I don't want to hear any more excuses about that - especially from any monolinguistic Neanderthals who might think knowing two languages is something only an astronaut could do.

Frederick - Now you have probably managed to insult a significant percentage of the Feldgrau membership, especially those that want so many German-language books to be translated into English

John

[B Hellqvist]

Sajer knew German fluently - if he was indeed was a GD member. His friggin life depended on it. I don't want to hear any more excuses about that - especially from any monolinguistic Neanderthals who might think knowing two languages is something only an astronaut could do. And for crying out loud - France was not on the moon! Unless this guy was living in a hole, he had access to anything published in Europe.

Sajer was of an age when one is still able to pick up a language and learn to speak it flawlessly. Plenty of exchange students can attest to that. On the other hand, if a language skill isn't nurtured, it usually wilts. I read German for three years over 25 years ago, and I can barely read, say, a page on Lexikon der Wehrmacht now, but I wouldn't be able to speak or write German except for the merest basics. It is fully possible that Sajer lost his German when he was back in France; he could probably still read it passably, though. As for picking up books, one has to know that they exist in the first place. In the pre-Internet days, one has to remember that much of the specialised literature was hard to find. One would expect Sajer to have done some research, at least to jog his memory, but it is pretty evident that he didn't. I guess most of us here would be able to cobble together a "veteran's account" fairly easily, and that it might fool, say, an editor, but it takes a certain talent to write a book where so much is off, and still sell it by the carloads.

- Björn, a bilinguistic Neanderthal

[Frederick L Clemens]

Frederick - Now you have probably managed to insult a significant percentage of the Feldgrau membership, especially those that want so many German-language books to be translated into English

Well, there's nothing wrong with being a Neanderthal as long as you recognize your limitations.

[phylo_roadking]

"Mommy! Mommy! I got a gold star in school today!"

"What did you get that for, honey?"

"The teacher said it was for doing something none of the other kids could do!"

"What was that, honey?"

"Dragging my knuckles on the floor!"

[Frederick L Clemens]

Sajer was of an age when one is still able to pick up a language and learn to speak it flawlessly. Plenty of exchange students can attest to that. On the other hand, if a language skill isn't nurtured, it usually wilts...

Sajer lived German, it wasn't just book knowledge. I believe that once a person achieves a certain level of fluency, it's not such a challenge to get back into it. But I don't know Sajer, maybe he is dumb that way.

As for picking up books, one has to know that they exist in the first place. In the pre-Internet days, one has to remember that much of the specialised literature was hard to find.

You guys look at this issue from the opposite point as I. My theory is that Sajer used information that he got from the literature to spice up the content of his book. Sajer was in the field of journalism - he knew how to find the info. What he didn't know or care about was how that info fit together. Sajer has info in his book that a private should not have known. He is inconsistent with the level of detail - that shows supplementation but not mastery of the subject.

[David N]

First of all, I agree with Doug Nash on "The Forgotten Soldier" 100%. It might better be described as a novel based on actual experience. There are discrepancies and wrong details, but Sajer tells us what it was like on the Eastern Front, and the kind of soldier to be found in the Gross Deutschland. I read it again cover to cover last year. I am convinced that Sajer was "there." There are a good many books by veterans that can be picked apart for getting some details wrong.

The biggest "blooper" I have found is when Sajer describes his leave in the Spring of 1943. He is laying on a bank with Paula during a Spring afternoon when a daylight bombing raid takes place. I have the Ballantine Books edition, printed March 1972. The raid is described on pages 179-82. In fact, there were no daylight raids on Berlin until March of 1944. Was his leave in 1944 rather than 1943. Hopefully, Guy Sajer can be asked these questions if the movie is made.

[B Hellqvist]

What he didn't know or care about was how that info fit together. Sajer has info in his book that a private should not have known. He is inconsistent with the level of detail - that shows supplementation but not mastery of the subject.

He sure is inconsistent; pages of dialogue, details like the cross in Pillau, the name of the ship that got him from Hela, as well as the date it sailed. It is my impression that the number of correct details increase towards the end of the book. If that means he got hold on good sources, or if his memories of the last stages of the war were better is hard to say. One of my main problems with the book is the supply run to the frontline platoon before joining GD. No way three weeks were spent trudging through the snow just to supply a single measly platoon! Or the Konotop battle, or the Bessarabian anti-partisan action. His ability to become separated from his regiment on several occasions (Konotop, Bessarabia, Eastern Prussia)... There's too much that don't fit, and some of it that does. If it wasn't for Doug's reports on Sajer in photos, his company commander knowing who he was, and other pieces of evidence, I would discount him straightaway. Well, he has certainly provided ample matter for discussion!

I took a similar look at Sven Hassel's "Legion of the Damned", which is supposed to be autobiographical, and while I believe that Hassel might have served in the Wehrmacht in some capacity, it is a real hodge-podge that suffers from innumerable errors. No way he crewed a 88 mm-gunned, flamethrower-armed Panther... or any other tank, for that matter. Sajer is a bit better, and he remembers things right on occasion, so he's more of an enigma.

[B Hellqvist]

Was his leave in 1944 rather than 1943. Hopefully, Guy Sajer can be asked these questions if the movie is made.

According to his book, until the end of March 1944, Sajer was cooling his heels some 50 miles south of Lvov in a camp near a village called "Sueka" by the Dniestr. There's actually a village called Sivka-Voynilov in the same location. He misses out the fun at Kirovograd and Rovnoye, where the major part of GD is deployed.

[Frederick L Clemens]

...It is my impression that the number of correct details increase towards the end of the book. If that means he got hold on good sources, or if his memories of the last stages of the war were better is hard to say. ...

What's queer about his increase in detail in the late stages of the war is that it runs counter to what is usually the case. Typically, you will find more detail at the front end when everything is new and strange to the vet, then the details decrease as the scenes of combat seem to repeat themselves. 1944 tends to get VERY short shrift in unit histories and memoirs. Another factor is that as the units lose their cohesion and the retreats take place, the average grunt has less and less information about the big picture or even his own circumstances. There are less photos and less diary entries.

I can understand a vet not knowing where he is during the chaos of the retreats and final battles. But Sajer? Sajer turns from a grunt into an operations officer when it comes to his level of detail in the later phases. Thus I have my suspicions that Sajer was supplementing his account with outside sources.

[Frederick L Clemens]

...Hopefully, Guy Sajer can be asked these questions if the movie is made.

I think that Doug Nash was our Last Great Hope for getting the truth from Sajer. If he hasn't opened up to Doug by now, I suspect it is a lost cause.

And if I am correct in my suspicions, Sajer has good reason not to come out of the closet.

[panzerschreck1]

Has anyone taken the slight effort to track and verify the accounts mentioned in TFS starting with Memel and ending up in Denmark and the inprisonment??

From what i have found out the events are chronological with the GD history from late 44 early 45..
Actually i have nothing more to say here on this Forum..its all just screaming and no ones listening..

Goodbye,

[Frederick L Clemens]

Has anyone taken the slight effort to track and verify the accounts mentioned in TFS starting with Memel and ending up in Denmark and the inprisonment??

From what i have found out the events are chronological with the GD history from late 44 early 45..
Actually i have nothing more to say here on this Forum..its all just screaming and no ones listening..

Goodbye,

Interesting - I guess in the midst of the screaming, you didn't notice that we basically already said that. The question thereby raised is why Sajer would be at his most accurate during the most chaotic period and more vague/inaccurate during the earlier, more stabile periods?

[Doug Nash]

But Fred --- that doesn't mean that he is lying - I think that Sajer was a stupid young man with big dreams and horrible memories and tried to remember them as best as he could - you and I can't even claim to know what it was like, and I've had 4 combat tours, but the totality of everything I experienced during 20 months in combat zones doesn't come close to what it was like to have fought for even one day on the Russian Front. The little details, in their totality, are unimportant, because if I've said it once, I've said it one thousand times, he didn't care about that, he was more interested in telling you what it was like to be there. I'm telling you, Sajer probably was suffering from PTSD (he'd have to have been a superman not to have), and that colors all of your perceptions for the rest of your life. Many of the Marines I serve with, who've had 3 - 6 tours in Iraq, seem pretty normal on the surface, but little things set them off & it's really interesting to hear 3 or 4 of them in the same room talk about the same event that they were direct participants in, and ALL of them have a completely different view of how a firefight or days of fighting (like in Fallujah) happened. It's like they were all in different battles, though they may have been a block apart. Your rather passionate takedown of Sajer, frankly, I find mystifying, when there are so many other aspects of WWII German military history that are worthy of investigation by readers of this forum, not just the Sajer controversy. And that's what it is, a controversy, a tempest in a teapot compared to the many other larger issues awaiting discovery and explication.

[Frederick L Clemens]

To put if frankly, there are telltale signs in Sajer's account that say he is lying - or at least living in a universe where facts don't matter. This disqualifies TFS as a classic in the area of German WW2 military, in my opinion. When people post questions about the book, I'll give my opinion as well as provide examples to back it up.

Sajer may be a great guy in person, but that matters little when it comes to rating his book as historical truth.

Last year, I visited and interviewed a W-SS vet. My wife and I stayed overnight in his house even though it was the first time I met him. He was a generous host. He also was a vet that paid his dues with the loss of his leg, but he still had a cheerful attitude about life. He was very willing to answer any questions and I was thrilled because he was the only vet I ever tracked down from his unit. As I was leaving, he said thanks to me for giving him a copy of his personnel record, which he had never seen. He added though that the medals listed only went up to EK1 whereas he later got the DKiG and RK. At this point, his girlfriend chimed in, "Mit Brillianten!" I guess he realized she had overplayed his hand with that one, so he contradicted what his girlfriend was saying and said it was just the RK. I smiled and said that was nice, knowing it was fantasy.

When I got home, I checked out another part of his story. He told me that a famous commander of his had died in his arms on the battlefield. He described the scene vividly, saying he could still see it like it was yesterday. In reality, that person died in 1984, not in 1944 - and I don't think it happened in this man's arms.

Now I am left wondering just what, if anything, of his story is usable. By one standard, I suppose I could just go ahead and use it all because he was there, he suffered, and so all the emotions are true, even if the "minor" details are off. But that just isn't the standard I go by. I wouldn't do that to someone buying my book, and I remain hostile to anyone selling me a book like that.

So here are Sajer's first words to start his book:

"July 18, 1942. I arrive at the Chemnitz barracks, a huge oval building, entirely white. I am much impressed, with a mixture of admiration and fear. At my request, I am assigned to the 26th section of the squadron commanded by Flight Commandant Rudel. Unfortunately, I fail to pass the Luftwaffe tests, but those few moments on board the Ju-87s will stay with me as a glorious memory."

So what do we have? We have a precise date, location, description, unit of assignment, commander, activity, equipment, and a statement of how clearly and fondly he remembers it. And none - I repeat - none of it is verifiable and most of it is implausible.

July 18, 1942 - yes, it was a date in WW2, but we have no shred of corroboration for the activities he claims on that date
Chemnitz barracks - yes, there is a Chemnitz, but a white oval building as a German barracks? Does anyone have a picture of such a white or oval barracks anywhere in Germany? Barracks architecture is a side interest of mine. To me, I think France when I see that description since white is such a dominant building color there (required in Paris) and the French were more avant garde in architecture.
At my request - what Luftwaffe non-flight trained recruit was allowed to request and be posted to a specific flight unit?
26th section of a squadron - Does this even come close to a Luftwaffe unit numbering system?
commanded by Flight Commandant Rudel - at this time, Rudel was Oberleutnant and Staffelkapitän of 9./StukaG 2 "Immelmann", not a squadron commander of a unit in or near Chemnitz.
fail to pass the Luftwaffe tests - he failed to pass what tests AFTER he was already in the frontline flight unit?
moments on board the Ju-87s - would this barracks of a flight unit happen to have been located at an airfield? Sajer claims time spent aboard multiple Ju-87s? Did he take his tests on them? Did he manage to bypass the minimum of one year of training before being assigned to a unit with front-line aircraft?

Could the original French text possibly be much closer to the truth? I suspect not, but am open to someone posting it. Please prove me wrong.

Doug claims that in this passage Sajer is actually describing his experience of a recruiting airshow while at an RAD camp in western Germany.

Is it rivet-counting to read what the man writes and take it as an actual claim on his part, rather than accepting it as some mysterious metaphor?

Pardon me if I don't buy Sajer's Magical Mystery Tour as a factual account.