Panzer Division Müncheberg

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Richard Hargreaves
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Panzer Division Müncheberg

Post by Richard Hargreaves » Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:52 pm

Does anyone know the source of an oft-quoted diary from an officer serving in the Panzer Division Müncheberg in the final days of the war? Ryan used it in the Last Battle and there are extracts on Wikipedia ( http://is.gd/Ie8Nep ).

I'm trying to track down the original - published or unpublished. It's always seemed an excellent source on the Endkampf. :[]
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Re: Panzer Division Müncheberg

Post by Dutto1 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:13 pm

Hi Richard,

As far as i can tell going through my collection,the source for the quotes appear to lead me back to Jurgen Thorwald's Das Ende an der Elbe, published in Stuttgart 1950.

Rrgards

Ron

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Re: Panzer Division Müncheberg

Post by Stephan H. » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:22 pm

Richard - I honestly don't remember seeing this in the Ryan Archives--I spent many long days culling through the material. I have copies of just about all of the Berlin accounts (minus the civilians) and if I found it, I would have used it in Bloody Streets.

I have to agree with Ron (just his post as I was typing). . . in fact, I'm pretty postive as well that Thorwald is the source.

Cheers

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Re: Panzer Division Müncheberg

Post by Dutto1 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:51 pm

Hi Richard,

I have dug a little further.Tony le Tissier identified the Officer who wrote the Diary as Dr Walter Kroemer,who in 1945 was a Leutnant in Panzer Division Muncheberg .I checked le Tissier's notes in his book Race for the Reichstag,and in the notes he confirms that he had contact with Dr Kroemer to confirm that it was him who wrote the dairy.It might be worth contacting Le Tissier to see if he has a copy of the Diary,as im pretty sure Jurgen Thorwald is dead.

Regards

Ron

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Re: Panzer Division Müncheberg

Post by Richard Hargreaves » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:30 pm

Thanks gents.

Having dug out my battered old 1958 copy of Thorwald, there are about 10 pages of extracts from the diary. The source notes lists a Walter Kroemer-Pecoroni who evidently collected a lot of documents on the battle, among them an account of Weidling's Corps and the Müncheberg.

Thorwald died about five years ago at a ripe old age. Considering when they were written his two Endkampf books are pretty impressive indeed; you can certainly see in Ende an der Elbe something of a blueprint for Ryan's later work. :[]
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Re: Panzer Division Müncheberg

Post by Dutto1 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:58 pm

No Problem Richard ! Jurgen Thorwald had one of his works published in English in 1951 - Flight in Winter .I saw a copy of this book in my local Barnardo's store about 10 years ago,i was on my way to work so i thought i would buy it on the way home but it had gone i was rather gutted at the time !

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Ron

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Re: Panzer Division Müncheberg

Post by Marc Rikmenspoel » Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:31 pm

Flight in Winter is a heavily condensed translation of Thorwald's 2-volume German set. As mentioned above, it was released in 1951. I believe there was a Ballantine paperback edition published around 1965. There was certainly a Bantam paperback from around 1982, which was retitled Defeat in the East. I still own that book, but it is buried in a box, somewhere in my room, and so is not handy for checking :(

The point remains that it shouldn't be too hard to locate a used copy, for anyone who wants one. But it also would be nice if the full original was eventually translated, or incorporated into a still-larger work.

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Re: Panzer Division Müncheberg

Post by Dutto1 » Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:38 am

Hi Marc,

Flight in Winter i am struggling to locate here in the UK at a reasonable price.The paperback is like hens teeth, the hardback turns up now and again at around 50-80 GBP but they are normally in bad condition.Maybe there is more available in the States,so my plan of action should be track one down there.

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Ron

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Re: Panzer Division Müncheberg

Post by Richard Hargreaves » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:41 am

According to a post on the AHF, the Müncheberg diary was published in edition no.629 of Kameraden in April 2006. Any idea what this is and where I might track it down?

There was a long running veterans' magazine, Alte Kameraden, but I'm not sure if it still exists; at any rate no copies from April 2006 seem to be floating around for sale if it is the right volume.

As for Thorwald, whilst there's some good first-hand material in it (there's a harrowing letter from one Breslauer on the Kanth Death March which I used in my impending tome, for example, and a very good Feldpostbrief from a Kurland pocket soldier), but I couldn't see much use in doing a complete translation of a 60-year-old book as so much material has come out in the interim. :[]
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Re: Panzer Division Müncheberg

Post by David N » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:07 pm

Marc Rikmenspoel wrote:Flight in Winter is a heavily condensed translation of Thorwald's 2-volume German set. As mentioned above, it was released in 1951. I believe there was a Ballantine paperback edition published around 1965. There was certainly a Bantam paperback from around 1982, which was retitled Defeat in the East. I still own that book, but it is buried in a box, somewhere in my room, and so is not handy for checking :(

The point remains that it shouldn't be too hard to locate a used copy, for anyone who wants one. But it also would be nice if the full original was eventually translated, or incorporated into a still-larger work.
I checked my bookshelves and found the Ballantine paperback titled Defeat in the East. This one is the second American printing, dated September 1967.

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Re: Panzer Division Müncheberg

Post by Dutto1 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:39 pm

Hi Richard,

Have you managed to get a copy of Kamaraden withe the relavant article in ? Its just out of interest to see if the publication is still up and running.

Regards

Ron

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Re: Panzer Division Müncheberg

Post by Berndkarlotto » Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:00 pm

I am not sure if this topic is still valid. My name is Bernd Kroemer, I am the son of the "Tagebuchschreiber of Panzerdivison Müncheberg". My father wa the late Prof. Dr. Walter Kroemer.
I just want to make something very clear, my father did NOT write this Tagebuch in his capacity as Ordonanzoffizier of General Werner Mummert, but it was his private Tagebuch, that was started during the retreat of Müncheberg at the Oderbruch battle. The whole book was handed over to Jürgen Thorwald and it was never returned. Unfortunately Thorwald only used the parts connected to the battle of Berlin.
The whole Tagebuch that was available to me (battle of Berlin) was published by me in the monthly magazine "Kameraden".
Excerpts from this Tagebuch, including fragments of the reatreat battles in the Oderbruch now can be found in the following new book: Hein Johannsen, Werner Mummert, Das Leben eines sächsischen Offiziers, published in 2012 by Verlag libergraphix. This book also contains photos of my late father. Being myself a publisher, I rate this book by Hein Johannsen as highly commendable.
Should you be interested in the Tagebuch published in Kameraden, please contact me early September 2013, via [email protected] and I will mail it to you.

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Re: Panzer Division Müncheberg

Post by Richard Hargreaves » Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:54 pm

Many thanks for getting in touch Herr Kroemer.

Very much still interested in your father's diary (I'm not sure as yet when I will get around to writing my long-planned Endkampf book). As long as I remember, I shall send an email come September!

Thank you also for the tip on the Mummert book - one I wasn't aware of. Looks very worthwhile indeed, although the price is rather daunting. :[]
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Re: Panzer Division Müncheberg

Post by Berndkarlotto » Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:51 pm

Indeed, the price is high. However the book is in A4 seize and contains more then 700 pages in best quality paper!
For sure it's worth the money.
Regards
Bernd Kroemer

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