My grandfather, the search so far

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Alex Dekker
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My grandfather, the search so far

Post by Alex Dekker »

It took a few years (round 10 to 12 years so far...), here is what I got.

My grandfather Herbert Noah was born in 1908 in Hannover, he died in Hannover in 1985. He was buried there too. I did visit Hannover twice, stood at his grave and did a small sightseeing tour through Hannover, led by Arne and Leo Niehorster. That visit was very, very nice. We visited one of the appartements were Herbert lived before the war, we did see the Police building, the Waterloo monument, and a few other sites.

Here's the story of my grandpa so far:

He entered army service in 1940, he served in the 267. I.D., in the Regiment 497. I got a copy of Bug Beresina Moskwa about this division and a regimental history of Regiment 497. My grandfather isn't mentioned in both books. According to the WASt, Herbert was a member of the 267. I.D. till november 25th, when he was about 75-50 km west of Moscow. He got difterie and frozen feet. He was transfered to Bernburg. After his time in Bernburg, he became a Sanitäterunteroffizier and was send to Alkmaar, Holland (Note: I got all three places were he stayed before he came to Holland). Herbert served here in the 347. I.D. from october 1942 till september 1944. On september 1st, the 347. I.D. moved to Belgium and was almost destroyed. The few men that survived, left for Germany, I guess round october 1944. The division was refreshed (?) and send to France, south of Saarbrücken. They moved slowly to Saarbrücken, saw some action round the city and left in the direction of Germersheim (near Speyer and Heidelberg). From januari/februari 1945 on, the 347. I.D. fought alongside with the Waffen-SS division 'Götz von Berlichingen'. They both defended the city of Germersheim. By grandfather was captured at march 25th, by Combat Group R, an Amercan unit. Herbert Noah became a POW and was a POW in French and British camps (thanks to the WASt I got the names of these camps). He was released in februari 1947 and returned to Hannover.

My father was born in februari 1945 in Alkmaar. My grandfather, married in Germany, knew my grandmother was pregnant. According to his POW-card, he had three kids. When I asked about his children in Hannover, they told me he did have two kids (Klaus and Bernd), who died during the war. It was one of the samll proofs which told me I was looking for the right man.

I also found out the first wife of Herbert died in the sixties. My grandfather married another woman. SHe had a sister, where, after Herbert died in 1985, she lived till her death in 1991. This sister had a son, who was married too. Both people have died too. Still, I was lucky enough to find the widow of the son. She is still alive and did know my grandfather. She even send me pictures of my grandfather and his second wife. Those pictues were like the biggest treasure I did found. I could compare them to the three pics I have. It was my grandfather indeed (note: I wasn't 100% sure before seeing these pics).

Apart from this, I know my grandfather had an Infanterie Assoult Badge or Infanterie Sturmabzeichen. He did see combat in Russia. In the regimental history I did found a list of possible days my grandfather could have been involved. For his differtery and his feet he received a Verwundetenabzeichen in Schwarz.

Furthermore, I know the KTB of the 347. I.D. goes from 1942 till septemeber 1944. I haven't read it yet. Same goes for the KTB of the 167. I.D. I haven't checked this one.

So far, so good, so what one might add. Still, I do think I'm missing something. I can reconstruct the part about 1940-1942, his time here in Alkmaar becomes more difficult, thew period september 1944 till march 1945 is complete blank (except for a few places where he was),while the fighting for Germersheim is completely clear. I didn't look for the POW-camps so far, maybe it can add something to the story?

Last but not least, do I miss parts I didn't research yet? Does anybody see a part I can look at? By the way, my grandmother died in 1996, my father died in 2000. The pictures Ilse S. send me, were post-war. She told me Herbert never ever talked about the war. She didn't know anything about my family or my grandfather.

So if someone can add something to this (very roughly written) story, please do. For example, how can I contact vets of both the 347. and the 267.? Assumming there are a few left, of course.

TIA, Alex D.
Always in need for info about: Dutchmen in the NSKK, HJ and TeNo.
Annelie
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Re: My grandfather, the search so far

Post by Annelie »

That is wonderful to read that your found this much about your Grandfather.

Did you contact the Red Cross?
They told me also the number and name of the POW camp my Father was in.
Also his prisoner of war number and his service number if you haven't already got this info.

I did find others who where in the same pow camp at the same time but didn't find anyone
who knew my Father, but I found out the conditions of the camp and other interesting things.
Found whom ran the cam and the cammanders name in fact even had contact with the son.

Every little details perhaps maybe not so important add up to the picture of your Grandfathers
life and time.

There is also an address somewhere where you may write to find details of your Grandfathers hospital
stay.
Annelie
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Alex Dekker
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Re: My grandfather, the search so far

Post by Alex Dekker »

Thanks for the tip, I did have contacted both the Dutch Red Cross and the German Red Cross. The Dutch RK provided a list of Noah's who died during the war (all men who never could be my grandfather, since they all died between 1940 and 1944), while the German Red Cross didn't find any info. On the other hand, I didn't have the right date of birth at that point. Maybe I should contact them again?

Also, you made a nice point about the camps. Something I could investigate too.

Another point: I haven't got a clue what happened between march 25th and june 1945. I assume after my grandfather became a POW, he was registered? What happened directly after his capture?
Always in need for info about: Dutchmen in the NSKK, HJ and TeNo.
A.C.E. van T.
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Re: My grandfather, the search so far

Post by A.C.E. van T. »

It's possible that his unit was sent to Antwerp in september 1944.
A traintransport stranded north of Antwerp and came under command of 719 I.D.
Not sure if it contained 347 units.
Must check my files for that.

greetings A.C.E.
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Re: My grandfather, the search so far

Post by Alex Dekker »

There were. Not much, but there were 347 troops involved indeed. Only a few though. They were transferred to Antwerp and recalled within a few hours. Thanks to Mad Dog I got the infromation I was looking for for the period of August and september.

And another update: I've written down the whole story, including the part of the POW-camps. Also, I did found a few sources about the fighting for Germersheim. The story is complete, if you ask me. Next month the document will go to the (Dutch) publisher (for those who want to know: Just Publishers, Hilversum) and the book will be released in september/october this year. Quite a surprise for me, but hey! If a publisher asks me, no problem! :D :up:
Always in need for info about: Dutchmen in the NSKK, HJ and TeNo.
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Re: My grandfather, the search so far

Post by A.C.E. van T. »

September 4 11.45 Uhr


8 Zuge der 347 I.D. stehen in Essen bzw. in Nord Holland


September 4 21.00 Uhr

Chef Gen.St.W.B.Ndl. meldet;

Von 347 I.D. ist bisher wenig eingerafft.


September 8 10.00Uhr

Kampfkommandant Luttich verfugt uber 3 Sich. Btle , 1 Stu. Pz. Kp. ,1 Funk-Lenk-Kp ,Dazu noch zuruckgekampfte Teile LXXXI.A.K. Kampfgrupee 347 und 89 I.D. auf dem Marsch im Abschnitt LXXIV A.K.
105.Pz.Brig. hat Auftrag, den Raum sudlich Luttich freizukampfen.

September 8 23.00Uhr

Kampfgruppe der 89 und 347 I.D. mit je 500 mann nach Westen angegriffen und Linie beiderseits Louvaigne erreicht.


September 12 18.30Uhr

O.B. sagt zu, dass Feld-Ers. Batl. 347, nach Eintreffen von Rgt. von der Heydte, zuruckgezogen wird.


September 16

I/723 + 1 Zug Pz.Jg.Abt. 719 + schwache teile Feld Ersatz Btl. 347 Voorheide bij Kanal Turnhout zu Schoten
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Alex Dekker
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Re: My grandfather, the search so far

Post by Alex Dekker »

Thanks for adding this info!
Always in need for info about: Dutchmen in the NSKK, HJ and TeNo.
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