I can understand hope the German Veterans feel

M48_Tanker · Post by **M48_Tanker** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:19 pm

As an US Army Tank veteran of the Vietnam War I can understand how the German veterans of WWII feel. We were called loosers, baby killers etc. All these accusations were not true at all. It is strange how the media and urban legend stories can take root and totally obscure the truth. I feel a distinct kinship to German veterans in this regard. I believe all soliders should be honored by their respective countries. I harbor no animosity towards Vietnamese soldiers because they were doing the same thing I was. Fighting for their country. I believe we all fit the title of the book "WE were soldiers and young too". I salute all veterans from all countries.

Mansal D · Post by **Mansal D** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:37 pm

Great post sir!

I thank you for your service to this country and I respect your feelings towards the fighting men from the other side!

panzerschneider · Post by **panzerschneider** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:11 pm

Well said M48 Tanker. Many of the German military accomplishments were quite brilliant and revolutionary, to say the least.

It's a real shame that the general populace tends to summarily dismiss the combat actions and focus only on the war crimes of WWII Germany.

The average landser certainly deserves the same respect for his military prowess that Allied veterans receive. Unfortunately, it's an accolade that he will be unlikely to receive...

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:00 am

Hi M48,

I am afraid I can't agree in general priinciple.

Each of us is an individual and acts differently. The same is true of soldiers. Some rise to heights of nobility in war that it is virtually impossible to replicate in civilian life, while others plumb depths normally unimaginable. Simply being a soldier is not inherently noble. It is what you do in uniform that counts.

Each case on its merits.

Cheers,

Sid.

M48_Tanker · Post by **M48_Tanker** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:04 am

I would not acknowledge the crimes of anyone, be they in uniform or not. My point was and is that the vast, vast majority of soldiers serve with honor, no matter what their country. How one chooses to view honor is another thing. And since the vast, vast majority of people worldwide have never put on a uniform, I say it takes courage to do that and especially during wartime.

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:13 am

Hi M48,

Yes, most soldiers do serve with honour. However, in the age of mass conscription, when most soldiers are just citizens in arms, there is no particular mystique to being in uniform. Nor does it necessary require courage to be called up compulsorily. It is what one does in uniform that counts. The teeth arms of a modern army, which inflict and suffer almost all casualties, are a small proportion of the whole.

Cheers,

Sid.

AJAB · Post by **AJAB** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:02 pm

I always wondered if combatants, during WWll or any war for that matter, who fought close encounters primarily on the ground, feel different towards the enemy soldier some 60 years later. From documentaries, and the WWll combat veterans I've talked with, it seems those in the air or on sea have different feelings about combat compared to those involved in close ground attacks. Mind you, I'm not in anyway saying one is easier, but does a distance exposure to the enemy result in a different viewpoint on the adversary later in life? I will admit, many tell me the enemy (Germans) was just doing his job, not unlike the American GI. Those I spoke with who fought the Japanese had nothing nice to say, even to this day.

Knox · Post by **Knox** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:22 pm

My greatgrandfather, my grandfather, and my father, all of them were soldiers, and they laid their weapons down, in 1918, 1945, and in the year 1974.

All of them suffered from their very own experiences, as ordinary soldiers, and as military officers.

These three soldiers went to hell and back, proverbially, but I did never heard a bad remark about their former enemies, not a single one.

All soldiers are "Brothers In Arms", and war is hell !

Knox

M48_Tanker · Post by **M48_Tanker** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:22 pm

It has been more than 40 years since I fought the Viet Cong and the North vietnamese. Time does melloe some things. But I remember that when we searched the enemy dead and found personal effects like family pictures and letters it made them just like us. Soldiers doing their duty. I did see atrocities that the political branch of the Viet Cong did to local village cheifs and their families. I have no use for political officers on the battlefield. No respect for them either. They are not soldiers, but manipulaters of people.

gerhard2 · Post by **gerhard2** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:50 pm

Hi Sid:
Trust you to cloud the issue on this topic.
Nobody is talking about those risen to "heights of nobility' or the " others plumb to depths normally unimaginable". I think he is talking about the poor sucker who for some reason or other believed his leaders needed him to defend his country and by doing so left his home, family and risked his health and life. And if he happens to be on the losing side he could also be branded as criminal.
I am living right amongst my former enemy now and I wonder how could I have been shooting at them. They are people just like me, with hopes and loved one's just like me. How could I have hated them as they did me ?
Why ? because our lying leaders told us to and gave us reasons for doing so.
Panzerschneider said:
"The average landser certainly deserves the same respect for his military prowess that Allied veterans receive. Unfortunately, it's an accolade that he will be unlikely to receive"
I would like to think so and thank him for it.
Gerhard

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:17 am

Hi Gerhard,

I would certainly agree that "The average landser certainly deserves the same respect for his military prowess that Allied veterans receive."

However, I would suggest it is a complete fiction that "Unfortunately, it's an accolade that he will be unlikely to receive...".

The German Army is almost universally acknowledged as the best of the war. The military prowess of the German landers is nowhere in serious question.

The problem is that military prowess doesn't distinguish between the quality of the causes it serves. The Landser's problem is that the cause he served in WWII was particularly poisonous. The Red Army man has a similar problem. En masse, both probably rose to heights of performance and self sacrifice rarely asked of their Western equivalents, whose cause was somewhat more meritorious, even if not perfect.

Cheers,

Sid.

gerhard2 · Post by **gerhard2** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:03 am

Hi Sid:
I don't think military prowess is what M48 Tanker had in mind. Anybody who seen action has usually something to show for his service. In my case a couple of scars and a A under my arm and the stigma for having been a member of a criminal organization.
No he means the ordinary landser who done his duty for his country and sees his service diminished because of crimes or actions he did not commit and likely did not know about.
Gerhard

Mansal D · Post by **Mansal D** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:25 pm

Sid,

Gerhard is right to the "T" on this one.

haen2 · Post by **haen2** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:13 pm

Gerhard and K98 man.
THANK you ! As a "criminal" by association

, I could not have said it better myself.

Sid, is there anything good you can find in the ex German service man ?
and . . . is your feeling based on personal experience, or just hearsay, parotted from the "keep the hate alive crowd" ?

Anyway

Shalom !
HN

chambers · Post by **chambers** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:42 pm

Tanker,

Good post, sir. And thanks for your service to our country. :)

Brooke

P.S. Did you know that our Rudi S. also served in the tank corps?

Feldgrau.net

I can understand hope the German Veterans feel

I can understand hope the German Veterans feel

Simply being a soldier?

"the Landser"