WW2 vets in Vietnam

Le Paradis · Post by **Le Paradis** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:29 pm

There are without doubt many WW2 vets who later served in Vietnam. Some migrated from European countries to USA, Australia, New Zealand, or were from those countries originally.

I am interested in finding out if there are any known instances of Vietnam vets who were serving as early as May 1940 in northern France. I know of one only at this point in time who served in the BEF and later served in Vietnam in the Australian Army (limited tour as a 46 yo in supply).

I am trying to determine if this Dunkirk/Vietnam combo of war service is unique - and if not, what might be the likely number of veterans who would have such a service record?? I'll probably never have a final answer to this, but if I don't ask, then noone will answer either.

Appreciate any comments.

Abwehr · Post by **Abwehr** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:12 pm

Well...

There is evidence (both concrete and conjecture) that at least some number of former German soldiers served in the French Foreign Legion in the opening days of what would become the Vietnam War.

Joscha - should you choose to believe him, as his claims are pending substantiation - has said that he served in Vietnam with the Americans after a full career in the Wehrmacht.

Fish · Post by **Fish** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:29 am

Guys. I hope this helps clairify things a bit.

Here is a bit of info a mini history lesson of sorts to help guide you.
In the 1950s the US Gov't passed what is known as the Lodge Bill / Act, it allowed for many DPs (Displaced Persons ) to enter the Armed Forces of the US. In 1952 Col Aaron Banks, the founding father of the US Army Special Forces (The Green Berets) established the 10th SF Group in Bad Tolz Germany, the former home of the old SS Junkerschule. Many of those soldiers he recuited came from the Former Soviet Union, Eastern and Western European countires and other obscure places .

One of those soldiers was the lefgendary Gary Thorne. I forget the proper spelling of his Finnish name. it was something like Torne with Finnish characters. Thorne was a member of the Finnish Army in WWII and fought against the Russians were he earned the Mannerheim Cross 3 or 4 times. He was later trained by the SS and awarded and EK II for his actions against the Russians. Later after the Finns made a truce with the Russians many Finns like Thorne were outlawed and prusued as crimminals and could not find haven anywhere. To make a long story short, Gary, with the help of other Finns in the US Army, changed his name, join the Infantyr and went to SF training and became a legend within the 10th Group. Later in Vietnam where he served in the mid 60's he went missing and is believed to have perished in a helo crash.

The book "The Green Berets" by Robin Moore is filled with names and alias of Lodge Bill soldiers and former WWII soldiers who came to the US Special Forces and fought in Vietnam. Their actions and deeds are legandary and well documented within the Special Ops community.
So to answer the question, Yes it is possible and well documented that WWII vets served in the US Army in Vietnam, many had a terrible hatred of the communists and just wanted to get at them.

In reference to the ongoing Joscha debate, he could have served in Vietnam but what I find funny about the story is that he was in Intelligence and doing a survey of some sorts This is a bit puzzling in regards to the type of security clearance he had at that time. I must say I'd like to believe him but instead of putting everyone off he needs to face the music. A true vet would be terribly upset with all those accusations but not run and hide, he'd face up to them.

Just my opinion of this uproar.
Best to all
Fish

Matt · Post by **Matt** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 4:01 am

Thankyou Fish for the information on Thorne - what an incredible life.
I did a search and this is the best link I could find on his service record.

http://www.geocities.com/sf_chapter_33/thorne.htm

Regards
Matt

Viciouspiggy · Post by **Viciouspiggy** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:32 am

You should have warned us about the background music. *Argh*.

Oh, and hello everybody. I'm new. Just posted to comment about the Finnish spelling of "Thorne's" name, which is Törni. It always suprises my how people (even some historians) don't bother to spell scandinavian letters in their works. "Torni" means "tower" in Finnish, while "Törni" doesn't mean anything, it's just a name.

Viciouspiggy · Post by **Viciouspiggy** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:40 am

Oh, one other thing. A few years ago (either 1999 or 2000) a rescue team found Törni's body and were able to identify him by dental records and his personal equipment (he had kept his Suomi SMG all the time!). It was in the Finnish national news.

I'm not sure whether he was returned here to Finland or the USA for his burial (though I'd bet on the former).

Fish · Post by **Fish** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 3:32 pm

VP, thanks for the update and sorry for the spelling, I didn't have the correct one with me at the time. I must also apologize for not hearing about his remains being found, its embarassing especially since our Group HQs is named Thorne Hall, after him. I guess i'm failing in unit history.
Must admit though he was what we call a real Bad Ass. And to think he was 40 something in Vietnam running around stiring up trouble.
The man was a legend no doubt about it.
Best
Fish

Le Paradis · Post by **Le Paradis** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 3:51 pm

Thanks everyone for contributions thus far - coming back to the original question on which this thread is based.........

...any news/ leads/ likelihood of a northern France 1940 / Vietnam service record combo?

David N · Post by **David N** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 10:52 am

The novelist James Jones went to Vietnam in the Spring of 1973 to write a series of articles for the New York Times. He published a book on the subject titled Viet Journal in 1974. I have a 1985 paperback edition. In the book, Jones travels around with US Army personnel.

On pages 110-11, Jones tells of a Major on the staff of Colonel Healy's ICCS team. The man is described as "an ex-German who had fought World War II as a German sergeant." Colonel Healy has the ex-German sing Deutschland Uber Alles during a drinking session.

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 5:37 am

I cant say alot about our Australian cousins, but as the New Zealanders in Vietnam were all volunters, and mainly Artillary, Infrantry and SAS it would have been very unlikely that any kiwis would have served in Vietnam, maybe one or two officers. My stepfather was also a padre with the local Wellington Artillary territorial unit that served there, and he could not recollect any WW2 veterens in S E A ops, either Malaya or Vietnam.

Re German ex POW's I remeber reading, (God knows where) that the French actively recruited ex German servicemen for their "dirty" wars. And it is without doubt that Germans died in Vietnam

Baltasar · Post by **Baltasar** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 7:18 am

Sounds somehow obscure. These german ex-pows must have been about 40 years or even older which is a little too old for a frontline soldier, I think.
Or were they used as leaders and in special service?

alsaco · Post by **alsaco** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 4:18 pm

Numerous german soldiers cut from home and family, or anxious to avoid querries on some facts did volunteer in the Legion. They were around 20 years old when war finished and departed in 1946 to Indochina.

Some deserted, and served in the Viet-Minh army as instructors.

Some of them had certainly been in the France Campaign 1940

After 60 years, the Legion, in Aubagne, Bouches du Rhone, France, can certainly open her archives, anonymous, to help an histoy minded study;

If names are requested, you must still wait. The legal delay in France is 100 years after death for all personal matters.

bkj_9167 · Post by **bkj_9167** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 2:36 pm

baically masses of former nazi's, waffen SS men and landsers joined the french foreign legion after ww2. indeed even today the 3rd foreign infantry regiment's regimental march is in german, and throughout the legion there are loads of german marching songs. when i joined in 1987 at a place called Pulyobier, where former legionnaire's go if they have nowhere else to go, there was a man with his black SS uniform in his wardrobe !, the legion looks after it's own.

Hara · Post by **Hara** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 9:37 am

Viciouspiggy wrote:Oh, one other thing. A few years ago (either 1999 or 2000) a rescue team found Törni's body and were able to identify him by dental records and his personal equipment (he had kept his Suomi SMG all the time!). It was in the Finnish national news.

I'm not sure whether he was returned here to Finland or the USA for his burial (though I'd bet on the former).

They did locate his personal equipment, which wasn´t a Finnish SMG "Suomi" but a Swedish SMG "Carl Gustaf"

I don´t have any further info on the relocation of Törni´s remains either, any Finns out there who have the answer ?

Jaegi · Post by **Jaegi** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 7:01 am

i red somerwhere that ther were about 35000 germans serving in the french foreign legion in the indochina war, many of them former waffen-ss
and wehrmacht. they were quite succesful against partisan operations but politicly unberable. too brutal...

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