Jason Pipes, in his last entry, has cast doubts about my overly full life. His privilege.
I have asked him to contact me and visit me when he comes to the East Coast in the near future. I truly hope he comes and sees me, because I an no longer able to travel (I am in an electric wheelchair and airlines, etc., are loath to permit their use). When Jason comes, I will show him my DD 214 with the appropriate entries relating to my service in the US Army (20 years, 4 months and 16 days, to be precise), and appropriate proof of my receipt of the Purple Heart and the Bronze Star for such service.
I look forward to seeing him and speak to him personally. When he has satisfied himself that I am not a liar, I am sure he will set the record straight to all of you. I am looking forward to this....
Hmmm.... the language of a man in his twenties....I wish. Joscha
Jason's doubts
Moderator: Tom Houlihan
Jason's doubts
"Move, you ^77&%#4@0(*! You wanna live forever?" - Primus sergentus in the VIIth Roman Legion.
Joscha, you must understand that his doubts are not uncalled for; as are the rest of ours. Namely because we can't see you through this forum. Jason didn't say you were a fake, he nearly said you needed to prove yourself, and I personally hope you do.
As a WW2 veteran (hopefully) I'm sure you can understand that history is full of flaws and that alot of it can be disproved by simply applying a little pressure. Guy Sajer's book "The Forgotten Soldier" has been disproved; for example, by a US Army officer. This book has become VERY popular, and is entertaining to read, but it never passed even the most basic trial of historical accuracy.
Best regards and wishes,
Rob S.
As a WW2 veteran (hopefully) I'm sure you can understand that history is full of flaws and that alot of it can be disproved by simply applying a little pressure. Guy Sajer's book "The Forgotten Soldier" has been disproved; for example, by a US Army officer. This book has become VERY popular, and is entertaining to read, but it never passed even the most basic trial of historical accuracy.
Best regards and wishes,
Rob S.
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Jason Pipes
- Patron
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- Location: CA & WI
Joscha is refering to the content of the following message thread:
http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1733
http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1733
Rob S.
Firstly, The Forgotten Soldier has NOT been disproved. It has been queried as an autobiography by Col Brown - whom I presume is your US Army officer. In return, it has also been fully supported by a US Army officer, Col Nash.
To sumarise from Nash's own conclusion
http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/
and a difficult to read reprint on
http://www.warfarehq.com/Articles/Warga ... oldier.htm
Your comments put you in the Brown camp however minor detail does not define historical veracity or not. The same would apply in Joscha's case too.
Bizoh
A retired soldier who made many accuracy errors during his service let alone in trying to recall events decades later!
Firstly, The Forgotten Soldier has NOT been disproved. It has been queried as an autobiography by Col Brown - whom I presume is your US Army officer. In return, it has also been fully supported by a US Army officer, Col Nash.
To sumarise from Nash's own conclusion
For the fullest exchange of views between the two US Colonels the original is found at"One could argue little details forever, but Sajer's own testimony is more convincing. In a letter to an associate, Sajer said his book records his actual World War II experiences while fighting on the Russian Front in the ranks of the Grossdeutschland division. While admitting to many errors in the chronology of events, weapon calibers and geography, he says he wrote about "my innermost emotional experiences as they related to me in the context of the Second World War." What is of importance to him is his description of an infantryman's life on the Russian Front - not strategy and tactics. To some, the distinction between a roman à clef and an autobiography may be a fine line. My point is this: Sajer wrote about his experiences -not those of a fictitious person. Sajer never claimed to have written a definitive history of the war - only what he experienced.
Guy Sajer is not a nom de plume -never has been. His last name was originally Monminoux, but because he wanted to pass as a German, he enlisted under his mother's maiden name -Sajer. He has been using the name of Guy Sajer at least since 1952, probably earlier. He signs his artwork Guy Sajer and receives his mail (and probably his royalty checks) as Guy Sajer."
http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/
and a difficult to read reprint on
http://www.warfarehq.com/Articles/Warga ... oldier.htm
Your comments put you in the Brown camp however minor detail does not define historical veracity or not. The same would apply in Joscha's case too.
Bizoh
A retired soldier who made many accuracy errors during his service let alone in trying to recall events decades later!
I don't give a rat's fat arse about Guy Sajer, In fact I don't know anyone that does, this is about Joscha and his reputation.
Rob, you stated that Jason did not call him a fake, well he's done everything but do that. He has implied and insinuated that he does not beleive Joscha to be the person that we all thought.
Having said that, this is Jason's site and he can say what he bloody well wants, I just think the daggers came out too early, and beleive me they did come out (not just from Jason either).
I just hope that if and when Joscha's credibility is proven, that all involved get on this forum and take a double helping of humble pie.
Time will be the arbiter here. Joscha, all I can say is, if you are genuine and I believe that you are, then don't take this hoo hah too much to heart, provide the evidence that people want without betraying too much if that is your wish and let's get back to our hobby.
Best wishes to all.
Rob, you stated that Jason did not call him a fake, well he's done everything but do that. He has implied and insinuated that he does not beleive Joscha to be the person that we all thought.
Having said that, this is Jason's site and he can say what he bloody well wants, I just think the daggers came out too early, and beleive me they did come out (not just from Jason either).
I just hope that if and when Joscha's credibility is proven, that all involved get on this forum and take a double helping of humble pie.
Time will be the arbiter here. Joscha, all I can say is, if you are genuine and I believe that you are, then don't take this hoo hah too much to heart, provide the evidence that people want without betraying too much if that is your wish and let's get back to our hobby.
Best wishes to all.
HISTORY IS WRITTEN BY THE FASTEST RUNNER!
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michael kenny
- Associate
- Posts: 812
- Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2002 5:09 am
- Location: Northern England
Minor details can be confused and as I have spoken to many veterans I do know how memory plays tricks on you. I have heard men who I know to be sincere repeat some very strange stories that just could not be true. Possibly they are repeating something they were told that has since become a 'memory'. I am not saying that every detail has to check out but if you knew the history of the infra-red vision equipment as fitted to tanks you would realise that someone saying he fought in a Tiger II with a working version is a very important revelation. It has never before been said any such system was fitted to a Tiger II and Joscha very specifically says he used this equipment to destroy enemy tanks. That could not be a memory lapse, either you used it or you didn't so whilst I am not saying it is impossible (nothing is) it is highly unlikely. IF it is true then Joscha has re-written the history of Infra-Red usage overnight.
I don't know whether Joscha is or isn't what he claims to be, but I have had doubts for quite awhile. Many of those doubts have already been voiced by other folks on this, and other, threads.
One not mentioned earlier is that he seems to get confused by his nationality of birth. His main claim is that he was born in Linz and that he is Austrian, but I seem to recall in at least one of his posts a long while back, he wrote in response to someone that he is German. I was raised around many German and Austrian emigres, some of whom were very close relatives. I've lived in Germany and traveled a bit in Austria. In my experience, with the exception of AH himself, I have never heard an Austrian claim to be a German or vice versa. Maybe Joscha was born to German parents in Linz, maybe the Anschluss affected his cultural identity or maybe he made a typo, I don't know. Does it prove or disprove his claims. No. However, this along with his other claims makes me wary of Joscha's veracity.
Also, in the bio he sent to Jason, Joscha made some pretty wild claims. Joscha's claims are not so different in tone from those made by Sajer. In the past, Joscha has been pretty harsh in his comments on Sajer's book and he particularly didn't believe Sajer's description of Memel. When asked for proof of his claims, as is Jason's right and responsibility to do, one would think that Joscha would be interested in showing that he is not another Sajer.
One not mentioned earlier is that he seems to get confused by his nationality of birth. His main claim is that he was born in Linz and that he is Austrian, but I seem to recall in at least one of his posts a long while back, he wrote in response to someone that he is German. I was raised around many German and Austrian emigres, some of whom were very close relatives. I've lived in Germany and traveled a bit in Austria. In my experience, with the exception of AH himself, I have never heard an Austrian claim to be a German or vice versa. Maybe Joscha was born to German parents in Linz, maybe the Anschluss affected his cultural identity or maybe he made a typo, I don't know. Does it prove or disprove his claims. No. However, this along with his other claims makes me wary of Joscha's veracity.
Also, in the bio he sent to Jason, Joscha made some pretty wild claims. Joscha's claims are not so different in tone from those made by Sajer. In the past, Joscha has been pretty harsh in his comments on Sajer's book and he particularly didn't believe Sajer's description of Memel. When asked for proof of his claims, as is Jason's right and responsibility to do, one would think that Joscha would be interested in showing that he is not another Sajer.
Last edited by Rohrbach on Fri Dec 13, 2002 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Michael - focusing on the specific equipment issue is interesting in that informed opinion knows of the limited use on late issue Panthers of an infra-red capability. So, why if you're making this all up would you use a completely unheard of story of infra-red on a Tiger II? Unless of course its the double bluff but then you would know everyone would want substantiation of such claims. Evidence which you know you wouldn't have.
Which is the relevance of Guy Sajer, Craig. As Rob S. illustrated these are only new debates in the realm of 'is he really what he says he is and did he really do this in his military service?' now in the context of Joscha an internet military forum poster. (Sven Hassel is a more infamous one that springs to mind).
Focusing on specific equipment issues as above and with Brown/Sajer, I don't believe from my own practical experience, that this is the full answer that many here expect in determing the veracity or not of veterans.
As said Jason has asked for corroboration of Joscha posts and military experience. Fair enough. It does however seem akin to a kangaroo court to do so in a public forum. An offence Joscha has taken and lead to his announced departure -a significant loss.
Although its Jason site I think he has understood that the matter may have been better handled. Though from reading all the comments about the previous episode with Rudi I don't understand why the process of these challenges hadn't been taken offline. Perhaps Jason had already made up his mind.
Personally, if he won't on or offline just give provide some proof then I would suspect a hoax....
Bizoh
Which is the relevance of Guy Sajer, Craig. As Rob S. illustrated these are only new debates in the realm of 'is he really what he says he is and did he really do this in his military service?' now in the context of Joscha an internet military forum poster. (Sven Hassel is a more infamous one that springs to mind).
Focusing on specific equipment issues as above and with Brown/Sajer, I don't believe from my own practical experience, that this is the full answer that many here expect in determing the veracity or not of veterans.
As said Jason has asked for corroboration of Joscha posts and military experience. Fair enough. It does however seem akin to a kangaroo court to do so in a public forum. An offence Joscha has taken and lead to his announced departure -a significant loss.
Although its Jason site I think he has understood that the matter may have been better handled. Though from reading all the comments about the previous episode with Rudi I don't understand why the process of these challenges hadn't been taken offline. Perhaps Jason had already made up his mind.
Personally, if he won't on or offline just give provide some proof then I would suspect a hoax....
Bizoh
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Frederick L Clemens
- Associate
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Joscha, I live close to you and I have met Babylon5kk previously at the Archives. If you would like me to meet you this week to put this thing to rest, let me know. As far as I can see, you are legitimate. I'll be glad to interview you - I wanted to anyway about the Kursk actions - and post my results here to validate your vet status.
Jason and others, don't be fooled by Joscha's use of slang. It is not unusual for someone switiching from one army to another to adopt the slang of his new home. Not every German vet sounds like a Hollywood stereotye.
Lastly, a bronze star from Vietnam is no big deal. Unfortunately, bronze stars have sometimes been given out like candy, more or less as an "I was there" medal. So Joscha is not making any exaggerated claim to say he got one.
Jason and others, don't be fooled by Joscha's use of slang. It is not unusual for someone switiching from one army to another to adopt the slang of his new home. Not every German vet sounds like a Hollywood stereotye.
Lastly, a bronze star from Vietnam is no big deal. Unfortunately, bronze stars have sometimes been given out like candy, more or less as an "I was there" medal. So Joscha is not making any exaggerated claim to say he got one.
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Jason Pipes
- Patron
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- Location: CA & WI
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sid guttridge
- on "time out"
- Posts: 8055
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi All,
Joscha's posting at the head of this thread is a red herring. The issue on this site is not whether Joscha was in the US Army, but whether he was in the German Army. Proof of service in the US Army is indicative of nothing with regard to his claims about service in the German Army.
Cheers,
Sid.
Joscha's posting at the head of this thread is a red herring. The issue on this site is not whether Joscha was in the US Army, but whether he was in the German Army. Proof of service in the US Army is indicative of nothing with regard to his claims about service in the German Army.
Cheers,
Sid.