Feldgrau.net

CARIUS, Otto * K's = 150 plus * > (s.Pz.Abt.502) < RK: 4-may-44 OL: 27-jul-44

According to the mans own autobiography with the actual award documents in the appendix.

Greetings "ekko" -

Thanks for the information !!

Greatly appreciated my friend !!



MASTER LISTS UPDATED: MONDAY, 26 JULY 2004.

Shadow,
Nice to see some progress on the "ultimate" Tank Ace List. I thougt the subject was since long forgotten. I am looking forward to an easily accessible data base when the list is "complete".

I can see a lot of effort being put into the work, I will contribute if I see that I can add new info.
Keep up the good work!

My thoughts are with you for a complete recovery of your health, get well soon!

Sigurd Helge wrote:Shadow,
Nice to see some progress on the "ultimate" Tank Ace List. I thougt the subject was since long forgotten. I am looking forward to an easily accessible data base when the list is "complete".

I can see a lot of effort being put into the work, I will contribute if I see that I can add new info.
Keep up the good work!

My thoughts are with you for a complete recovery of your health, get well soon!

Hello "Sigurd Helge" -

Thanks for the kind thoughts my friend !! Much appreciated !!

My PC has been off-line for the last 10 days, so not much progress has been made by "yours truly" !! -

I hope to come up with some more data in the near future. I'll just keep "plugging away" until we all decide the list is as accurate as is humanly possible to make it, and then we'll call it quits! -

Best regards -

It is Feldwebel HEINZ Gärtner of 3./sPzAbt. 503 , look here :

http://panzer-archiv.marcof.de/forum/vi ... php?t=2029

not JOHANN !

Jan-Hendrik

Otto Carius' kill total is no were near 150, his total is around 122, his Knights Cross documents confirm the 122 total by award date and newspaper articles at the time.

Also kills as a gunner don't count as a tank commander, so number one Kurt Knispel on the list is dropped down a number of spots; are you going to count his commanders kills twice?

So that leaves Wittmann whos total is between 139-144 that from articles and documents at the time.

I do have a good story about Otto I can't post here, and Timo if you want it I will email you it.

A little bit wrong , Carius did a lot of kills AFTER receiving his RK .

Knispel was mentioned for 162 kills in the official "Wehrmachtsbericht" .


How many of Wittmanns kills did he as Richtschütze ?

Jan-Hendrik

Most of Knispel's kills were when he was a gunner. Those count seperately. As a commander he had about 42 kills. So Wittmann and Bolter are still the top tank commanders. As far as Carius, I've heard anything from 150 kills to 68 kills. I think the 150 score is a combination of tank kills as well as gun and artillerie kills. Because if you remember Wittmann had about 141 tank kills, but he also had about 132 gun and artillerie kills. So I believe Carius' numbers are so high, because its a combination. But, I could be wrong. However, as far as Knispel is concerned, yes he was an excellent gunner and commander, but he does not belong on the top of the list.

If you listen to the men who fought alongside Kurt Knispel they would tell you that he must have destroyed closer to 200 enemy tanks. Not that I think his number should be adjusted that high -- but from personal conversations and correspondence -- and consulting personal diaries of his comrades from s.Pz.Abt. 503 - I have to believe the 160s is a conservative estimate based on confirmation through his abteilung chain of command.
The fact that he was submitted for the Knights Cross on at least 4 occasions is also testament to the skills of Knispel. Unfortunately his "unsoldierly" attitude and lack of concern for military discipline, etc. etc. cost him that award.
Also -- if he had been in the Waffen-SS as one of the "chosen ones" there is little doubt that he would have worn the Swords and anyone would be questioning his position at the top of the Panzer Ace list.
Just my humble opinion...
Dale

Hi Dale ,

Yes , that is the point ! If he was at the Waffen-SS he would have been a hero . But his lack of discipline did cost him much . His combat effort was on top , no doubt .
Of course it is often forgotten which was the most succesful tiger unit ...


SCHWERE PANZERABTEILUNG 503 !

http://panzer-archiv.marcof.de/forum/viewforum.php?f=28

No better , no braver ...

Jan-Hendrik

P.S: So for this pathetic post , but I am totally tired of being bored again and again with these Waffen-SS "heros" ...

I personally don't care much for Wittmann. I like Bolter the best.

There really is not much point of arguing over the exact scores or how to figure them out. I believe on an earlier thread about the topic of the top aces we had agreed that gunners/commanders scores would tally the same. You can not really separate them. The whole crew for that matter deserved the credit.
So if Knispel (just for one example) had accumulated his 160 + as both gunner and commander than the total of 160 + counts just the same. Same applies to many of the other aces on the list whose numbers reflect both positions served on a panzer crew.
They all deserve credit.

Is there a latest update of the list with everyone's corrections / suggestions ?

Dale

Can this list be made into a "sticky" and can we add photographs of all the panzer aces ?

Good idea , Dale !

Kurt Knispel , 1./sPzAbt.503 :



Heinz Gärtner , 3./sPzAbt. 503 :



Hans Rondorf , 3./sPzAbt.503 , later sPzJgAbt. 512 :




Jan-Hendrik