Downgraded KC's to GC's??

Individual German officers, soldiers and award holders.

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Kameraden
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Downgraded KC's to GC's??

Post by Kameraden » Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:03 am

In Hans Von Lucks "Panzer Commander" Book he states that before being transferred to Africa he met his Divisional Commander General Funk who stated he had recommended Von Luck for the Knights Cross'But Hitler had just created the German Cross and to quote the book "All recomendations for the Knights Cross have been converted "(to German Crosses)

Sounds a bit Fishy?
You don't recommend someone for Your Highest Decoration and then say we've introduced a lower Decoration and your going to get that instead.

Is there any Truth that all recommendations for KC's were downgraded to GC's when the GC was first introduced?
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Post by leopard 2 » Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:20 am

well... The german cross in gold/silver was introduced specially to fill the decoration between Eisens Keuz 1st class and RK. So, I don't see why the recommandations shouldn't be converted...
I don't know, but what von Luck writes seems really logical.

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Post by Kameraden » Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:28 am

I could understand if SOME of the awards were downgraded as perhaps the KC was all that could be offered'but then the introduction of the GC made the Decision makers think that some of them merited only the Middle Decoration?

But all???
Also i would be fairly annoyed to find i had been recommended for the KC and perhaps for an act that was similar to an act that had merited the award of the KC to members of the Wehrmacht before'and to get Downgraded.

Imagine you've been recommended for the Medal of Honor and get awarded the Silver Star or the Victoria Cross and get the Military Cross.

Remember especially as on officer the award of the KC reflected on their Unit/Aircrew and Vessel/U-Boat.Many KC award winners say they wore it only on behalf of their men.
So by downgrading the Individuals award you are also downgrading the Units recognition.
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Post by leopard 2 » Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:43 am

well, I understand.
Of course, it should be very disappointing for those who were proposed for the RK. But it's only propositions... Those officers or soldiers were not awarded yet and were not sure to gte it.
At this moment, they had only the EK 1st class, and were proposed to the RK, ok. But, if Hitler says that German Cross in Gold replaces the RK, then, you should be as happy to receive the other one? Isn't it?

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Post by Kameraden » Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:17 am

leopard 2 wrote:But, if Hitler says that German Cross in Gold replaces the RK, then, you should be as happy to receive the other one? Isn't it?
But it does'nt replace the KC.
It's clearly a lesser award and less prestigious for the Owner and his Unit.
Like you say it had only been recommended and not yet awarded so the person was not sure to get it.
But to Blanket change all KC Recommendations to GC when the GC was first created i think thats an error.
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Post by Nibelung » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:13 am

The story is strange but nevertheless, here is a link if it can help you...too bad the Iron cross section is under renovation...

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/german_ ... s_main.htm


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There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people. - Heinz Guderian
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Post by leopard 2 » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:38 am

Sorry, I should have written it in a different manner:
German Cross does not replace it, in sense that RK keeps on living... but it replaces it in the fact that it's now the one decoration which comes juste after the EK 1st class.
It's bad luck for those guys to be proposed for the RK at this period, but that's also another motivation for those who really want the RK to keep on fighting hard!

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Post by Nibelung » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:44 am

So, you had to get a german cross first? Thats a bit out of the context isn't is? did you have to get all classes of the german cross (silver & gold) before recieving the RK?

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There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people. - Heinz Guderian
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Post by leopard 2 » Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:16 pm

Since his introduction, yes, you had to become the german cross before eventually receiving the Knight's Cross.

Gold or Silver crosses... I'm sure you did not had to get the two before eventually receiving the RK. Here is something I found about:
The German Cross was introduced on 28 september 1941 and comprised two grades: silver and gold. The Silver Cross was for NCOs and officers who had performed several acts of bravery or in their role as commanders, while the Gold Cross rewarded outstanding merit in leading troops...
I'm not sure, but I think german soldiers had to become the gold one for eventually pe rewarded the RK later on...
I'm now searching for an officer who became the silver and the gold Crosses...

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Post by leopard 2 » Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:44 pm

I can't find any german soldier who recieved both the silver and gold crosses... But I've seen some special things, that makes this German Cross a little less understandable...
A lot of generals, as they received the Knight's Cross early in the war (june 1940 for example), are awarded the German Cross after this date! (G.d.Pztr Ferdinand Schaal, G.d.Inf Dietric von Choltitz, G.d.Inf Erich Clössner...).
The most special case is Gen.d.Pztr Fridolin von Senger und Etterlin: he was awarded the Knight'Cross on 8 february 1943, and the German Cross in Gold after that, on 11 october 1943. This is a contradiction in the rule that states the German Cross between EK 1st class and RK.
I'm lost...

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Post by Nibelung » Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:41 pm

Seem's this German cross was also like a reward for and outstanding performance which couldn't be rewarded with a RK, or if the soldier already had the RK he got the German cross instead of Oak leaves, or something like that? I'm just speculating and trying to solve this problem...

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Post by Kameraden » Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:53 pm

There was no requirement to get the GC before the KC.
Many KC Winners were awared the KC and never received the GC at all or were awarded the GC after the KC.

Howver it was a requirement to have the Iron Cross 1st and 2nd class and that is what in some cases a KC winner was awarded all 3 at the same time.
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Post by Nibelung » Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:22 am

Howver it was a requirement to have the Iron Cross 1st and 2nd class and that is what in some cases a KC winner was awarded all 3 at the same time.
I know for that requirement, but do you know for any cases when this really happened?

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Nibelung
There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people. - Heinz Guderian
-- Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago. --

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Post by Kameraden » Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:22 pm

I do an will get you some information.

Give me a day or so.

Thanx
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Post by Kameraden » Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:06 am

Ok.

It's hard to find info on this as this tended to happen to lower ranks as Officers etc usually had at least the EK2.
Also i deal mostly with the Waffen-SS so other branch examples are hard for me to know.

But Mooyman of the Waffen-SS received all 3 awards in Feb 42.

EKII 4th Feb
EKI 10th Feb
RK 20th Feb.

Fritz Christen of the Totenkopf already had the EKII.But upon his actions later he was immediatly awarded the EKI by Theodor Eicke and recommended for the RK.
I will show you were the Iron Crosses Grow!

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