I have a feeling Hitler kept Keitel in post as he could relied upon to do what he was told with miminal fuss.
He is reported as having said that Keitel had the "brains of a cinema usherette". Keitel was probably promoted to a level beyond his ability , a " nodding donkey" he questioned nothing and obeyed all.
Jodl may have been the more talented of the two , he was known to have had one or two disagreements with Hitler .
98 is a pretty reasonable IQ score , about average as far as I can recall .
Keitel and Jodl, what were they good for
Moderator: Commissar D, the Evil
Keitel /Jodl.
" Life , to be sure is nothing much to loose ; But young men think it is , and we were young . "
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).
Amongst the stronger personalities of the Wehrmacht's leadership, Keitel's nick-name was "Lakeitel", German for lackey.
To be fair though, their role in the system as it existed wasn't to lead (or even suggest) bold panzer advances. It was to oversee the efficient running of the German military as an institution. Questions of organization, mobilization, equipment, administration, training. Boring, but essential.
And the fact of the matter is that in this sense they were astoundingly effective. The German military kept churning out remarkably proficient forces, time and again, despite strategic bombing, and despite disasterous reverses. Given the fact that it took the rest of the world, with a combined population many times that of Germany's, six years to pin them to the mat, I would suggest that their accomplishment (in a narrow technical sense) was remarkable.
How many armchair pundits in this forum could efficiently oversee the mobilizing of millions of men, their training and equipment to standards everyone here seems to admire, and get them to the front despite bombing and shortages? The line that "Hitler decided everything" is overworked and facile. Hitler wasn't coordinating any of the staff work it took to make all of that happen.
To be fair though, their role in the system as it existed wasn't to lead (or even suggest) bold panzer advances. It was to oversee the efficient running of the German military as an institution. Questions of organization, mobilization, equipment, administration, training. Boring, but essential.
And the fact of the matter is that in this sense they were astoundingly effective. The German military kept churning out remarkably proficient forces, time and again, despite strategic bombing, and despite disasterous reverses. Given the fact that it took the rest of the world, with a combined population many times that of Germany's, six years to pin them to the mat, I would suggest that their accomplishment (in a narrow technical sense) was remarkable.
How many armchair pundits in this forum could efficiently oversee the mobilizing of millions of men, their training and equipment to standards everyone here seems to admire, and get them to the front despite bombing and shortages? The line that "Hitler decided everything" is overworked and facile. Hitler wasn't coordinating any of the staff work it took to make all of that happen.
Good morning
What you're saying is very interesting. I agree with some things, and do not agree with any others...
You're right when you say that their role was to oversee the german army globyly, as an institution. However, the main role, the main mission they had to do, was a political orientation of the Wehrmacht. I mean... They had to say: "No, we won't attack the Soviet Union, because... (military arguments)", They had to say: "No, I won't sign this order because this will kill a lot of civilian people"... They just said "No we shouldn't"... generally followed by a "Yes My Führer". In theory, this was not their mission in fact. This would have been the mission of the commandier in chief of the Wehrmacht. But, since 2/4/1938, when Hitler dismissed Blomberg, this role came to himself, as a commander in chief, or supreme commander. But, if The first militaryman was not able to have a word in political matters (even though Keitel had the rank of a War Minister), that means in strategy, then, who would have done that?!
When you say that "Questions of organization, mobilization, equipment, administration, training" was overseen by those two, I'm not agree 100%. Because they were other general officiers who were specialized in some kind of matters. They were general or superior officers in the OKH, but also in the OKW. So they had to oversee, but nothing else than approve, or reject the work of their subordinates.
Were they good for that mission of overseing that kind of work?! I really don't know. On 1/30, 1933, when Hitler receives the political power, Keitel is only Colonel, and Jodl (not sure), Major or Captain... That is not very high for guys who, five years later... 5!!! ... become the first two militarymen of the german empire.
always like to think that soldiers are at least as good as their rank they had before Hitler. So, I'm persuaded that those two were good superior General Staff officiers... Were they good generals? Were they good for leading the military institution? I can't answer that.
What you're saying is very interesting. I agree with some things, and do not agree with any others...
You're right when you say that their role was to oversee the german army globyly, as an institution. However, the main role, the main mission they had to do, was a political orientation of the Wehrmacht. I mean... They had to say: "No, we won't attack the Soviet Union, because... (military arguments)", They had to say: "No, I won't sign this order because this will kill a lot of civilian people"... They just said "No we shouldn't"... generally followed by a "Yes My Führer". In theory, this was not their mission in fact. This would have been the mission of the commandier in chief of the Wehrmacht. But, since 2/4/1938, when Hitler dismissed Blomberg, this role came to himself, as a commander in chief, or supreme commander. But, if The first militaryman was not able to have a word in political matters (even though Keitel had the rank of a War Minister), that means in strategy, then, who would have done that?!
When you say that "Questions of organization, mobilization, equipment, administration, training" was overseen by those two, I'm not agree 100%. Because they were other general officiers who were specialized in some kind of matters. They were general or superior officers in the OKH, but also in the OKW. So they had to oversee, but nothing else than approve, or reject the work of their subordinates.
Were they good for that mission of overseing that kind of work?! I really don't know. On 1/30, 1933, when Hitler receives the political power, Keitel is only Colonel, and Jodl (not sure), Major or Captain... That is not very high for guys who, five years later... 5!!! ... become the first two militarymen of the german empire.
always like to think that soldiers are at least as good as their rank they had before Hitler. So, I'm persuaded that those two were good superior General Staff officiers... Were they good generals? Were they good for leading the military institution? I can't answer that.
As per subject.
Keitle was an artill. oficer , he had a good record as an organisational man , but was not noted for any command record.
In Army pre 33 advancement in the army was not easy and long periods at relatively junior rank did occur.
I would agree that the two officers did not do the job alone , deligating and having in place people who could ensure that the operations ran smoothly.
Keitel worshiped the ground Htiler walked on , anything which Hitler ordered , he did , right or wrong , legal or illegal , issued not to be considered. He obeyed almost without question , which was what Hitler wanted .
My own though is that Jodl was the more talented of the two.
But as the old German proverb says " He who sups with the Devil should have a long spoon" , both men got burnt by their close association with Hitler and how the war was conducted from the word go.
I too would go with what paul says but not on all points.
Certainly , I see myself as no armchair general and can fully appreciate that to supply and keep an army going is quite a task , it just does not happen.
Increasingly as war went on the ability of any staff oficers to influence the method or course of the German ship became increasingly difficult.
Hitler did hold the reins of power and any who cared to argue got a high award and a golden hand shake. Sometimes not even that.
In Army pre 33 advancement in the army was not easy and long periods at relatively junior rank did occur.
I would agree that the two officers did not do the job alone , deligating and having in place people who could ensure that the operations ran smoothly.
Keitel worshiped the ground Htiler walked on , anything which Hitler ordered , he did , right or wrong , legal or illegal , issued not to be considered. He obeyed almost without question , which was what Hitler wanted .
My own though is that Jodl was the more talented of the two.
But as the old German proverb says " He who sups with the Devil should have a long spoon" , both men got burnt by their close association with Hitler and how the war was conducted from the word go.
I too would go with what paul says but not on all points.
Certainly , I see myself as no armchair general and can fully appreciate that to supply and keep an army going is quite a task , it just does not happen.
Increasingly as war went on the ability of any staff oficers to influence the method or course of the German ship became increasingly difficult.
Hitler did hold the reins of power and any who cared to argue got a high award and a golden hand shake. Sometimes not even that.
" Life , to be sure is nothing much to loose ; But young men think it is , and we were young . "
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).
You write: "I see myself as no armchair general" ... I'm not sure to understand that very well... Are you a general officer yourself?
Keitel and Jodl did not have, any of them, some kind of command on the battlefield during the First World War. I think it's some big experience, that could be verx useful for a commander in chief or for a general staff officer, that's missing to them.
I know that, since 1933, advancement in the army was naturally faster than before. The army is growing, and the officers are missing. I think it's natutral that advancement is faster. But... in five years: from Colonel, becoming a Generaloberst... that's a lot, isn't it?
You write: "Keitel worshiped the ground Htiler walked on , anything which Hitler ordered , he did , right or wrong , legal or illegal , issued not to be considered. He obeyed almost without question , which was what Hitler wanted."
My question is: Hitler is the supreme commander, that's ok. He's the superior of Keitel... Is this enough to obey without thinking of your own responsabilities? I know it was difficult from 1933 to 1945 to say anything wrong, to say "no" to the chiefs, especially to Hitler. Keitel obeyed... he deserved to be hung at Nüremberg... He lost his honnour, and that's no good for a general officer, isn't it?!
I can remember that Jodl, in september 1942, went to Gfm List's QG, to see if List had followed or not the orders from the high command. When Jodl came back to Rastenburg (Winnitza?), he told Hitler that List had followed Hitler's orders... Jodl dared to speak with a loud voice, against Hitler's mind at that moment. It was told that from this moment, Hitler began to eat alone, or with his dog, Blondi!!!
I read once that, after the retreat in december 1941, Hitler thought about replacing Keitel and Jodl, by Kesselring and Paulus. Have you ever seen some information like this? Is that right?
Keitel and Jodl did not have, any of them, some kind of command on the battlefield during the First World War. I think it's some big experience, that could be verx useful for a commander in chief or for a general staff officer, that's missing to them.
I know that, since 1933, advancement in the army was naturally faster than before. The army is growing, and the officers are missing. I think it's natutral that advancement is faster. But... in five years: from Colonel, becoming a Generaloberst... that's a lot, isn't it?
You write: "Keitel worshiped the ground Htiler walked on , anything which Hitler ordered , he did , right or wrong , legal or illegal , issued not to be considered. He obeyed almost without question , which was what Hitler wanted."
My question is: Hitler is the supreme commander, that's ok. He's the superior of Keitel... Is this enough to obey without thinking of your own responsabilities? I know it was difficult from 1933 to 1945 to say anything wrong, to say "no" to the chiefs, especially to Hitler. Keitel obeyed... he deserved to be hung at Nüremberg... He lost his honnour, and that's no good for a general officer, isn't it?!
I can remember that Jodl, in september 1942, went to Gfm List's QG, to see if List had followed or not the orders from the high command. When Jodl came back to Rastenburg (Winnitza?), he told Hitler that List had followed Hitler's orders... Jodl dared to speak with a loud voice, against Hitler's mind at that moment. It was told that from this moment, Hitler began to eat alone, or with his dog, Blondi!!!
I read once that, after the retreat in december 1941, Hitler thought about replacing Keitel and Jodl, by Kesselring and Paulus. Have you ever seen some information like this? Is that right?
Patrick wrote:Despite earlier postings, the average IQ was not 140, but 128, which is still highly respectable. Nor, were there any simpletons (arguably Streicher might count), since an IQ of 100 is "average".
--------------------------
IQ of Nazi leaders, cited from: Gilbert, G. M.: Nuremberg Diary. New York: Signet Book 1947, p. 34;
Wechsler-Bellevue IQ:
Hjalmar Schacht IQ 143
Arthur Seyss-Inquart IQ 141
Hermann Göring IQ 138
Karl Dönitz IQ 138
Franz von Papen IQ 134
Erich Räder IQ 134
Dr. Hans Frank IQ 130
Hans Fritsche IQ 130
Baldur von Schirach IQ 130
Joachim von Ribbentropp IQ 129
Wilhelm Keitel IQ 129
Albert Speer IQ 128
Alfred Jodl IQ 127
Alfred Rosenberg IQ 127
Constantin von Neurath IQ 125
Walter Funk IQ 124
Wilhelm Frick IQ 124
Rudolf Hess IQ 120
Fritz Sauckel IQ 118
Ernst Kaltenbrunner IQ 113
Julius Streicher IQ 106
Does this mean I am a little more intelligent than all of them? Last time I checked my IQ was about 152 or something.
DasReich.X
Mark
Mark
maybe... maybe not. I'm not sure you have the same way to measure your IQ that it was done in Nüremberg in 1945... Then, you would be more intelligent than those guys.
It cannot be contested that Schacht was a very intelligent person, He's done some economical theories that wear his name! But, you cannot say that the intelligence of the nazis are proportional as their competence.
Example: Speer was certainly one of the most capable minister, and he's only in the middle of the ranking. Even Ribbentrop is above!!!
I remember reading that it was Schacht who was the architect of the economic policies that helped Germany cope with and emerge from the Great Depression. I wish I had paid attention to what exactly those policies were!
Cheers,
Patrick
When I was single, I had three theories on raising children. Now I have three children and no theories.
Patrick
When I was single, I had three theories on raising children. Now I have three children and no theories.
Armchairs.
Leopard , no never served in the armed forces , but would not see myelf as being one who on the strength of what he has read would be able to give advice to the armed services.
The disagrement bewtween Hitler and Jodl and the thoughts of replacing them , I am almost sure that I saw something about both matters in the past but can't be completely sure of the details.
Yes Keitel did not do for the Army , what Donitz and Raeder did for the navy. He was bound to know what was passing through his hands was wrong and immoral.
I have a quote which described how Keital was questioned by Caranaris regarding executions of civilians in ocupied Poland , Keitel brushed of the question as if it were of no consequence. ( Will look it up).
Keitel wrote his memoirs when he was detained at Nuremberg , I have never read them they might surrender some answers.
The disagrement bewtween Hitler and Jodl and the thoughts of replacing them , I am almost sure that I saw something about both matters in the past but can't be completely sure of the details.
Yes Keitel did not do for the Army , what Donitz and Raeder did for the navy. He was bound to know what was passing through his hands was wrong and immoral.
I have a quote which described how Keital was questioned by Caranaris regarding executions of civilians in ocupied Poland , Keitel brushed of the question as if it were of no consequence. ( Will look it up).
Keitel wrote his memoirs when he was detained at Nuremberg , I have never read them they might surrender some answers.
" Life , to be sure is nothing much to loose ; But young men think it is , and we were young . "
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).
I totally agree to that, your note about Canaris'impression about Keitel is very precious.
What do you mean by "Keitel did not do for the Army , what Donitz and Raeder did for the navy"? What did Dönit and Raeder do for the Navy? I thought Dönith also had a couple of orders that ha was not to be proud of, isn't it?
What do you mean by "Keitel did not do for the Army , what Donitz and Raeder did for the navy"? What did Dönit and Raeder do for the Navy? I thought Dönith also had a couple of orders that ha was not to be proud of, isn't it?
Well, Dönitz did have some orders which he couldn't be proud of, like the order to kill or leave the survivors of the merchant ships, but how could you take prisoners on a U-boot in the middle of the atlantic (talking about the space needed for them) ?What do you mean by "Keitel did not do for the Army , what Donitz and Raeder did for the navy"? What did Dönit and Raeder do for the Navy? I thought Dönith also had a couple of orders that ha was not to be proud of, isn't it?
Dönitz and Raeder or at least Donitz lead his U-boot wolf packs and coordinated the attacks, which made him a much differrent chief than Keitel.
best,
Nibelung
There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people. - Heinz Guderian
-- Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago. --
-- Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago. --
Donitz / Keitel.
Donitz did say that apart from captains or oficers who might provide intelligence that no efforts should be made to sustain or rescue surivors of merchants ships.
This he ordered after the Laconia incident , having said that this was no more than as going on in other theatres by Allied submarine crews.
Hitler wanted crews to shoot surivors , Donitz refused to go along with this. By and large he conducted a hard but honourable war , if there can be such a thing.
He did have Hardigan and Lemp change the content of their war diaries to go along with what Germany wanted to be let known about certain incidents.
One thing I did not "like" was his sending thousands of shipless sailors into action around Berlin as infantry men when it was already a lost cause , a needless waste of lives.
This he ordered after the Laconia incident , having said that this was no more than as going on in other theatres by Allied submarine crews.
Hitler wanted crews to shoot surivors , Donitz refused to go along with this. By and large he conducted a hard but honourable war , if there can be such a thing.
He did have Hardigan and Lemp change the content of their war diaries to go along with what Germany wanted to be let known about certain incidents.
One thing I did not "like" was his sending thousands of shipless sailors into action around Berlin as infantry men when it was already a lost cause , a needless waste of lives.
" Life , to be sure is nothing much to loose ; But young men think it is , and we were young . "
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).
Yes, he did all that... About the clean war part, he could afford to keep it that way, appart from the efforts by the Wehrmacht in the ostfront.
He got 10 years at the Nurnberg trials (why did Reader get 20?), so what did he do after his release?
best,
Nibelung
He got 10 years at the Nurnberg trials (why did Reader get 20?), so what did he do after his release?
best,
Nibelung
There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people. - Heinz Guderian
-- Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago. --
-- Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago. --
Raeder had recieved not only 20 years, but to life. He was freed after some 20 years however.
Raeder was guilty for crimes against peace, warcrimes and crimes against humanity. Dönitz was guilty only of crimes against peace and warcrimes. That's the reason why he had only ten years.
I heard that it was also because Otto Kranzbühler, his advocate, was a great one. There is another thing: This advocate had nearly accused the US Navy to have done some same things that were reproached to Dönitz. Because the Allies couldn't be accused - as it was done for the Katyn affair - they prefered not to speak about that. I can't remember nor find what it was...
Raeder was guilty for crimes against peace, warcrimes and crimes against humanity. Dönitz was guilty only of crimes against peace and warcrimes. That's the reason why he had only ten years.
I heard that it was also because Otto Kranzbühler, his advocate, was a great one. There is another thing: This advocate had nearly accused the US Navy to have done some same things that were reproached to Dönitz. Because the Allies couldn't be accused - as it was done for the Katyn affair - they prefered not to speak about that. I can't remember nor find what it was...
donitz
I think it was to do with waging unrestricted submarine warfare.
The USN conducted the same warfare as Donitz did , as you say "pot was calling the kettle black".
The USN conducted the same warfare as Donitz did , as you say "pot was calling the kettle black".
" Life , to be sure is nothing much to loose ; But young men think it is , and we were young . "
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).