4. Panzer Division 6/7th October 1941

BobM · Post by **BobM** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:53 am

Gents

On these two day the the 4th Panzer encountered the Soviet 4th Tank Brigade at Voin SW of Mtsensk. The Russian had about 20 odd T-34 and a handful of KV's and the 4th's advance was halted. I am trying to find more deatils of the battle.

Which parts of the 4th Panzer were involved? Does anyone have any strength returns for those dates. A good map of the battle would help too :-)

Cheers

Bob

Juha · Post by **Juha** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:08 am

Hello
in the first volume of the 4th PzD history you can find a couple of good map sketches, German narrative and loss reports of each 10 day periods. Sorry, I'm at work and I cannot remember the name of the author. But the volume one is very good inded. The German losses very rather heavy but not anything as excessive as one can see in some books and articles on that battle and after all in a couple days the 4th PzD took Mtsensk, or whatever, and pushed the Soviets east of the town. And the 4th Pz had suffered heavier casualties during some earlier 10 day periods, if my memory serves me right.

Juha

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:52 am

There is a manuscript in the USAMHI series by former German commanders: D-253 "Anti tank defense in the East" written by Erich Schneider. Schneider was the 4 PzD arty commander at that time and he describes this battle. There's not much detail and no maps but the narrative is a few pages IIRC. Basically he said that the Soviet heavy tanks blasted the panzer KG soon after it crossed the Oka bridge, that the panzers withdrew to the south and awaited the Pg KG while his artillery held off the T-34's. Next day the Pg KG advanced and drew the attention of the Soviets while the Pz KG bypassed the fight and entered Mtsensk unopposed. The subsequent combat in the city streets was won by the 4 PzD because their panzers held the advantage of surperior manuverability, rate of fire, and field of vision, which gave them an advantage in the city streets.

Hope this is of some use to you.

Jerry

Juha · Post by **Juha** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:42 am

Hello
what I remember from the book is that on the first or the second day of the battle is that after Germans have crossed the Oka? river they were stopped by some Soviet heavy tanks firing at the German vanguard tanks from nearby ridge. Germans returned fire but to their dismay their long-range fire was ineffective while Soviet tanks hit some of the German tanks and maybe 4 of them were total written-offs. Because of the terrain and the deadly fire of the Soviet tanks the panzers could not get near the Soviet tanks. Then Germans pushed forward 2 10cm K18s and 2 88s Flak. Germans were already used to heavy Soviet tanks and their vanguards were followed by some heavy guns for AT work. But now Soviet tanks manouvered skillfully and knocked out most or all of those 4 heavy guns and at least 2 of prime-movers. Particularly the 10cm K18 field cannons were at disadvance because of their narrow field of fire. After that Germans knew that they must find some new solutions because it wasn't possible to push the Soviet tanks away from the ridge and so they sent a KG to make a detour around Soviet flank and there were some difficulties because of the softness of the ground on some points.

Not much but I don't have time today or tomorrow to check my notes for more precis info or for the author. But as i said the book is very informative, lot of map sketches and the loss reports for every 10 days at least for part of the Operation Barbarossa and for time to time panzer returns also. And same to May - June 40 and early 43 during the fighting near Kursk, that means during the desperate fighting before Manstain's Kharkov counter-attack in spring 43.

Juha

Frederick L Clemens · Post by **Frederick L Clemens** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:17 am

Juha, the 4.PD history you refer to is by Joachim Neumann, former artillery officer in AR103/4.PD.

Jerry, thanks for the tip on that manuscript. I must have overlooked it in my Lauchert research.

BobM, Soviet sources tend to crow about this engagement, so you can find muliple references in various English-language accounts of the I-will-regurgitate-everything-the-Soviets-say variety, including Glantz.

Mzensk seems to be significant as the first time in which the Soviets deployed their heavy tanks (T-34 & KV) in a coherent way, not just by ones and twos. So, this made the Germans really worry since individual heavy tanks were pesky enough, but whole units of them were a real threat. Lucky for the Germans, the Soviets still had a ways to go in learning how to control their units in a dynamic way.

Mzensk could also be called the place where the Panther was conceived. Guderian invited a Panzer Kommission to visit the Mzensk battlefield to inspect the T-34 wrecks there and the battle aftermath. Lauchert, who later would command the first Panther units in battle, was the tour guide.

BobM · Post by **BobM** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:46 pm

Gents

Thanks for the replies. I did a book search for the history - can't find it on the internet

Could someone scan the relevant map please?

Cheers

Bob

asiaticus · Post by **asiaticus** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:42 pm

Try this for modern topo maps of the area.

http://mapy.mk.cvut.cz/data/Rusko-Russia/Tula_200k/

in particular:

http://mapy.mk.cvut.cz/data/Rusko-Russi ... k/tu20.jpg

BobM · Post by **BobM** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:44 am

Thanks - I already know that site

The place we are looking fore - incase cyrillic does your head in is "BONH" on the E-105 road

Cheers

Bob

BobM · Post by **BobM** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:53 pm

Gents

Does anyone know the operational tank strength on the 6th Oct?

I'm also unclear on whether both the I and II abt of the 35th participated

Cheers

Bob

Paul B · Post by **Paul B** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:08 pm

According to Neumann's history of the 4th Pz div, on 6th October the "Vorausabteilung Eberbach" consisted of:

Stab 5.Pz.Brigade
I./Pz.35
5./Pz.35
K.34
3./Pz.A.A.7
1./Flak 11 (8,8)
A.R.103 (without I.)
4./A.R.69
I./Nb.W.53
1./Pi.79

Can't give you the operational tank strength of 6th October, but on 4th October it were 59 panzers.

Losses on 6th October:
10 panzers, 6 of them completely, two 8,8 Flak, one 10 cm cannon and one l.F.H. The enemy lost 17 tanks.

Hope it helps.

BobM · Post by **BobM** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:04 am

Dear Paul

Thanks very much! Does the book break down the tank strength by type?

Cheers

Bob

Paul B wrote:According to Neumann's history of the 4th Pz div, on 6th October the "Vorausabteilung Eberbach" consisted of:

Stab 5.Pz.Brigade
I./Pz.35
5./Pz.35
K.34
3./Pz.A.A.7
1./Flak 11 (8,8)
A.R.103 (without I.)
4./A.R.69
I./Nb.W.53
1./Pi.79

Can't give you the operational tank strength of 6th October, but on 4th October it were 59 panzers.

Losses on 6th October:
10 panzers, 6 of them completely, two 8,8 Flak, one 10 cm cannon and one l.F.H. The enemy lost 17 tanks.

Hope it helps.

Paul B · Post by **Paul B** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:50 pm

[quote]Does the book break down the tank strength by type?[/quote]

Unfortunately, there's no info on that in Neumann's book.

Paul

asiaticus · Post by **asiaticus** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:28 pm

I am looking at the modern maps of Mtsensk area and was wondering which way the Germans swung around the Soviet defense at Bonh?
From the look of things the south looks like good rolling open country with a route into the city from the south screened by a ridge from the Bonh area.

BobM · Post by **BobM** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:51 am

Paul B wrote:
Does the book break down the tank strength by type?
Unfortunately, there's no info on that in Neumann's book.

Paul

Thanks for looking

Cheers

Bob

Jan-Hendrik · Post by **Jan-Hendrik** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:10 am

Have a look at

this post

of me at AHF

Jan-Hendrik

Feldgrau.net

4. Panzer Division 6/7th October 1941

4. Panzer Division 6/7th October 1941

battle maps

How did the Germans bypass the Soviets to get to Mtsensk?

Re: 4. Panzer Division 6/7th October 1941