I need to find any type of information about this unit. From what I have found it was part of the 16th German Army by Army Group North as an independent Bataillon attached on the Corps level.
Commanding Officer and Knights Cross with Oak leaves, Major Geisler, Rudolf. (Kia 13/4/44 at Kowel)
The Unit took part already in Barbarrossa in the 16th Army, XXVIII Army Korps and stayed that way till moved in 1944 to the 2nd Army (AGC)
The training unit was the Pi.E.213 (where is this?)
Need more help..any books I might buy, places to look for?
This is the unit I just found out by researching the Volksbund and getting a letter back. This is the unit where my grandfather´s brother fought and died on the 16th of October 1943. I would like very much to find out more about this outfit. Division histories are somewhat easier to find that info about these small units.
Pionier Bataillon 662
Moderator: Tom Houlihan
Pionier-Ersatz-Bataillon 213
The unit was formed on August 30th, 1939 in Wehrkreis VIII (Brieg). In December 1940, the battalion was transfered to Strasbourg (France) in Wehrkreis V. On October 1st, 1942 the unit was split into a Pionier-Ersatz-and Reserve-Pionier-Bataillon 213.
The Ersatz-Bataillon was transfered back to Wehrkreis VIII (Brieg) on October 12th, 1942. On May 1st, 1944 the battalion was once again transfered, this time to Glogau.
The Reserve-Pionier-Bataillon 213 was of course formed on October 1st, 1942 in Strasbourg (Wehrkreis V) and subsenquently moved to the French Atlantic coast. The battalion was subordinated to the 158. Reserve-Division and in July 1944 it constituted Pionier-Bataillon 1316 (16. Infanterie-Division).
Source: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... Bat213.htm
Cheers,
Christian
The Ersatz-Bataillon was transfered back to Wehrkreis VIII (Brieg) on October 12th, 1942. On May 1st, 1944 the battalion was once again transfered, this time to Glogau.
The Reserve-Pionier-Bataillon 213 was of course formed on October 1st, 1942 in Strasbourg (Wehrkreis V) and subsenquently moved to the French Atlantic coast. The battalion was subordinated to the 158. Reserve-Division and in July 1944 it constituted Pionier-Bataillon 1316 (16. Infanterie-Division).
Source: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... Bat213.htm
Cheers,
Christian
It appears that Pi.Btl 662 was attached to Pi.Btl. 21 (21. Infanterie Division) on May 12th, 1942 (Source: http://home.t-online.de/home/wdpi5/wh-pibtl21.htm). I do not know how long the unit remained with Pi.Btl. 21, however it would be worth focusing some of your research on this division as you might likely find out more about Pi.Btl. 662.
Additional sources:
http://www.feldgrau.com/InfDiv.php?ID=21
http://www.bartels.com/genealogy/ID21.php3
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... iBat21.htm
Hope this helps.
Christian
Additional sources:
http://www.feldgrau.com/InfDiv.php?ID=21
http://www.bartels.com/genealogy/ID21.php3
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... iBat21.htm
Hope this helps.
Christian
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Ebusitanus
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Thank you very much Christian,
About the 21 ID, the problem is that it so seems that diferent units were attached for what it looks like on a temporal basis.
1942, 23. März wird BauBtl 101 (von Armee/Korpstruppen) dem PiBtl 21 unterstellt
1942, 12. Mai wird die 1./ PiBtl 11 (von 11. ID) dem PiBtl 21 unterstellt
1942, 12. Mai wird PiBtl 662 (Armee/Korpstruppen) dem PiBtl 21 unterstellt
It so seems that these units left after a certain time with the PiBtl 21.
Where could I find information about this unit? Any book? Right now I am at a dead end here. I have found after many months of research the unit my grandfather´s brother fought and died in Oct. 1943 but there is just no info available anywhere that I know off about the details. Divisions normally have a guy or two who wrote the memoirs after the war but that is something quite hard for just a Battalion sized unit like the 662.
About the 21 ID, the problem is that it so seems that diferent units were attached for what it looks like on a temporal basis.
1942, 23. März wird BauBtl 101 (von Armee/Korpstruppen) dem PiBtl 21 unterstellt
1942, 12. Mai wird die 1./ PiBtl 11 (von 11. ID) dem PiBtl 21 unterstellt
1942, 12. Mai wird PiBtl 662 (Armee/Korpstruppen) dem PiBtl 21 unterstellt
It so seems that these units left after a certain time with the PiBtl 21.
Where could I find information about this unit? Any book? Right now I am at a dead end here. I have found after many months of research the unit my grandfather´s brother fought and died in Oct. 1943 but there is just no info available anywhere that I know off about the details. Divisions normally have a guy or two who wrote the memoirs after the war but that is something quite hard for just a Battalion sized unit like the 662.
There is no easy way to find all these details in a single source and the fact that this unit was not attached to a division complicates things quite a bit. I will post and see what Tessin has about this unit.Where could I find information about this unit? Any book? Right now I am at a dead end here. I have found after many months of research the unit my grandfather´s brother fought and died in Oct. 1943 but there is just no info available anywhere that I know off about the details
Another key clue in my opinion is that Major Geisler was KIA on 13/4/44, at Kowel. This location is in the Ukraine.
I will do a little more research and keep you updated. Might take me a day or two.
Cheers,
Christian
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Ebusitanus
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Thank you again Christian for your effort..perhaps there is some type of memoire written about the XXVIII Corps. The 662 PiBtl was a Corps/Army unit as far as I understand.
Do you btw know any good source about a book speaking about the Soviet Offensive in Oct 1943 by the Kalinnin Front against and around Newel? I believe my grandfather´s brother died in the closing stages of stabilitzing the northern tip of the breakthrough south of Novosokolniki (West of Vieliki Lucky) but not much is written about those battles after Kursk and before Bagaration.
Do you btw know any good source about a book speaking about the Soviet Offensive in Oct 1943 by the Kalinnin Front against and around Newel? I believe my grandfather´s brother died in the closing stages of stabilitzing the northern tip of the breakthrough south of Novosokolniki (West of Vieliki Lucky) but not much is written about those battles after Kursk and before Bagaration.
I would suggest that you first find out the information contained in Tessin about Pi.Btl. 662. I made a post about this and hopefully somebody will be able to help.
With this information you will be able to determine the unit it was subordinated to in October 1943 and also identify the area of operations.
With these details you can then start some serious research.
I would also recommend that you contact BAMA and find out some additional information through that channel. Some of the divisional records from 1943 are quite good and could easily yield combat reports, maps, etc.
In short, arm yourself with patience and time.
Here is however a possible book you might consider:
Heeresgruppe Nord. 1941 - 1945 (Werner Haupt)
Cheers,
Christian
With this information you will be able to determine the unit it was subordinated to in October 1943 and also identify the area of operations.
With these details you can then start some serious research.
I would also recommend that you contact BAMA and find out some additional information through that channel. Some of the divisional records from 1943 are quite good and could easily yield combat reports, maps, etc.
In short, arm yourself with patience and time.
Here is however a possible book you might consider:
Heeresgruppe Nord. 1941 - 1945 (Werner Haupt)
Cheers,
Christian
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Ebusitanus
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I guess there is no easy way to get hold of these Tessin volumes, right? And even if, which is the volume that would talk about this unit?
What is the BAMA? And how could I contact them?
On Haupt´s work regarding AGN, I bought the book just to check the material there but even if its very detailed, its does not talk about this unit nor goes very deep into this battle. I just ordered a book by Glanz that speaks (hopefully) more in detail about this Soviet Offensive. He works closely with Nazfiger and should provide some good info too (I hope)
What is the BAMA? And how could I contact them?
On Haupt´s work regarding AGN, I bought the book just to check the material there but even if its very detailed, its does not talk about this unit nor goes very deep into this battle. I just ordered a book by Glanz that speaks (hopefully) more in detail about this Soviet Offensive. He works closely with Nazfiger and should provide some good info too (I hope)
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Leo Niehorster
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I am afraid Tessin cannot help you here. Here is all that is noted. From Vol 12, page 64:
Leo Niehorster
CheersPionier-Btl. 662
*1.6.40 aus dem 25.8.1939 durch Grenzwachabschnitt 58 Ratibor aufgestellten Sperr-Pionier-Btl. 1./VIII; 17.2.1941 Abgabe der 2. Kp., sie wurde ersetzt.
U: Heerestruppe: Westen; Russland, 1942 18. (zeitweise 11.) Armee vor Leningrad, 1944/45 3.Pz.Armee Ostpreussen
E: 213 Brieg, WK III
Leo Niehorster
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Ebusitanus
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Thank you very much Leo..at least we got confirmation that the Ersatz Battalion for this unit was the 213 of Brieg (Silesia) like Christian said earlier.
I found this nice website about Brieg, now in Poland. Its in German but quite a nice read. It talks about several regiments there and even one PiBtl too (Pionier Bataillon 68.), but no mention of the 213.
http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/SCI/Br ... l#kverlauf
I would also like to know why is this unit also portrayed as being part of the 18th Army instead of the 16th (XXVIII Corps)?
I found this nice website about Brieg, now in Poland. Its in German but quite a nice read. It talks about several regiments there and even one PiBtl too (Pionier Bataillon 68.), but no mention of the 213.
http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/SCI/Br ... l#kverlauf
I would also like to know why is this unit also portrayed as being part of the 18th Army instead of the 16th (XXVIII Corps)?
When Pi.Btl. 662 was attached to Pi.Btl 21 (21. Infanterie Division) in May 1942, that division was part of 18. Armee. This is why I was questioning your earlier information that the battalion was attached to 16. Armee during the entire time until 1944.I would also like to know why is this unit also portrayed as being part of the 18th Army instead of the 16th (XXVIII Corps)?
In my humble opinion, the only way you are going to make any progress finding details about this unit will be to study records of divisions/units it was attached to. As I mentioned, the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv in Freiburg (BAMA) might be able to provide copies of relevant records, however it is a costly and time consuming effort.
(http://www.bundesarchiv.de/aufgaben_org ... index.html)
I will keep you updated if I find out anything further.
Cheers,
Christian
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Ebusitanus
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Thanks Christian, I have made my request by the BAMA, lets see what they answer.
I was thinking that in the meanwhile I might look into any kind of book about specifically the 16th and 18th Army and the XXVIII Corps. Is anyone aware of any such literature?
The other lead I thought about was this Major Geisler, Rudolf. Commanding Officer for nearly at least two years and Knights Cross with Oak leaves.
I have the German "Die Ritterkreutzträger der Waffen-ss"...I´m sure there must be a similar version about the Heer, right? Like telling the story behind those Knights Cross with Oak leaves like on the Waffen-ss version.
Can someone with this book take a look under Geisler, Rudolf and check the information given about him? I´m sure those bid and pieces might be priceless since he got his Knights Cross on December 1943, surely for some action commited in the months leading to that date...with my grandfather´s brother dieing on October 43. Perhaps he took part in the action that lead to the Knights Cross for the Major.
I was thinking that in the meanwhile I might look into any kind of book about specifically the 16th and 18th Army and the XXVIII Corps. Is anyone aware of any such literature?
The other lead I thought about was this Major Geisler, Rudolf. Commanding Officer for nearly at least two years and Knights Cross with Oak leaves.
I have the German "Die Ritterkreutzträger der Waffen-ss"...I´m sure there must be a similar version about the Heer, right? Like telling the story behind those Knights Cross with Oak leaves like on the Waffen-ss version.
Can someone with this book take a look under Geisler, Rudolf and check the information given about him? I´m sure those bid and pieces might be priceless since he got his Knights Cross on December 1943, surely for some action commited in the months leading to that date...with my grandfather´s brother dieing on October 43. Perhaps he took part in the action that lead to the Knights Cross for the Major.
