4. (Panzer) Kompanie / schw. Ski-Batallion 1

[Piet Duits]

Hi,

The 4. (Panzer) Kompanie of the schw. Ski-Batallion 1 was equipped with 22 T-34's, and originally was the 2. / Panz.Abt. z.b.V. 66.

According to the Gültigkeitsliste for the 1. Ski-Jäger-Division it was build according to KStN 1175 v. 1.11.43.
Does this mean the T-34's in question were T-34/85's, with a 5-men strong crew, or were the T-34's equipped with the 76mm gun, and only 4 men crew?
I ask this because if it were T-34/76's,IMHO the more appropriate KStN would be KStN 1159, also from 1.11.43 (StuG-Kompanie).

So here comes my question: is it known which type of T-34's that the 4. Kompanie had?

TIA,


Piet

[BobM]

Dear Piet

From:

http://www.battlefield.ru/t34_85_2.html

"An insignificant number of T-34-85 tanks were captured by German forces as well as by forces of states allied to Germany. The tanks, which were used by the Wehrmacht, were generally isolated individuals. This is understandable, in 1944-1945 the field of battle was left to the Red Army in the majority of cases. The fact that individual T-34-85s were used by the 5th SS Panzer Division "Viking," the 252nd Infantry Division, and a few other units, is well known and well established. As far as Germany's allies, in 1944 the Finns, for example, captured nine T-34-85s, six of which were used by the Finnish army until 1960. "

So I'd guess T-34/76

Cheers

Bob

[Piet Duits]

Bob,

Thanks for your response.
I wonder how much credit should be given to "die deutschen Skijäger", by Georg Gunter.

In this book, he writes about the Panzerjäger-Begleitzug 152. The number of men more or less correspond with the unofficial KStN I have for such a Begleitzug.
Furthermore, there are other things in the book I have questions about.

Here's an extract from the book, quote starts:
"... Fr die Aufstellung der 1. (Panzerjäger) Kompanie des Schweren Ski-Batallions 1 kam von der 330. I.D. die 2./ Pz.Jäg. Abt. 330 zur Brigade; sie war zuerst mit 7,5cm Pak, teils Sf., teils RSO, und danach mit 8,8cm Selbstfahrlafette (>>Hornisse<<) ausgestattet. "
A bit further: "...Eine Besonderheit in diesem vollmotorisierten Verband - und überhaupt in der ganzen Deutschen Wehrmacht- bildete die später eingegliederte 4. Kompanie (ehemalige 2./Panz.Abt. z.b.V. 66) mit 24 russischen Beutepanzern neuerster Bauart, den T34/85 (30t), die über eine 8,5cm Kanone verfügten."

Quotes taken from page 63.

Interesting. Hornissen with Ski-Jäger-Brigade 1 ?!?! I really doubt that.

But still, he calls them /85 and the latest version. How can I compete with that


Best regards,

Piet

[Roger Griffiths]

Good Morning Piet,

I have 1 Ski-Jaeger-Division KrGl for 1Jan45.

4/schw. Ski-Btl 1 showed 1 lmg, 4 T34 and 5 T43.

There was some correspondence about this recently. The consensus was that they were 7,6cm.

Roger

[Piet Duits]

Roger,

Indeed, I know. I was wondering about earlier versions though.
Does this Kriegsgliederung show the Panzerjägerbegleitzug in the Panzerjäger-Abteilung?
Can you give me a reference where you found this particular Gliederung? I have a lot of Soll-Gliederungen, but no Ist-Gliederungen for this unit.

TIA,

Piet

[Roger Griffiths]

KrGl. is in IWM London AL 1994/1. I don't know the BAMA reference.

PzJgAbt. 152. Yes symbol for Jg.Bgl.Zg. is there, but outside 100% personnel area wash which may mean forming or authorized but not formed.

As a matter of interest, 29 T34 given as being in hand in other docs. Only 9 on KrGl. The additional weapons list states 57 MG(r) in T34/43. Looks like 29 present but 9 deployed. List also states 1,553 St.Gew.44 in hand.

Roger

[Piet Duits]

Roger,

Interesting!
How strange that on the 7.1.45 Gliederung, this Panz.Jäg. Begleitzug is gone.
As many units were forming such Begleitzüge to protect their important Panzerjäger, I find it very strange that the Ski-Jäger Division didn't have it authorized.

Here's the Gliederung in question: http://www.okem.nl/~s.p.duits/T78R399%20F6368748.TIF

29 T/34! Wow, again. Even if the Kompanie was at full strength, with 22 T/34's, it would have formed a very strong force, especially as the number of tanks in regular Panzer-Abteilungen were decreasing to 10 Panzers per Kompanie. And then 29! My guess is that the number of tanks not on the Gliederung meant these vehicles were in repairs, or what could also be the case: these tanks were not to be known to the OKH.
Each unit had to send it's Ist-Gliederung to the OKH, so they could transfer subunits away from the division/brigade etc.
If these vehicles are not on the list, the OKH could also not transfer them...

This is just a guess

Piet

[Roger Griffiths]

Piet,

I'll send you the KrGl.

Weapons List

8,966 Kar98k
163 Kar98k with scopes
728 Kar 43 (SLR)
271 Rifle Grenade Attachments
1,748 Pistols
484 MP38/40
1,553 StGew44
57 MG(r) in T34/43

Roger

[BobM]

Gents

From the Nuts and Bolts PaK-40 auf RSO book (sorry 'bout the poor OCR)

"The I sI Ski-]iiger-Brigade, which was enlarged to the I sI Ski-]iiger-Divi-
sion in spring 1944, had in each of their two regiments, a 9th company,
which was later renamed after supply of the III. Battalion as the 13th
company, and was named Panzerjiiger-Flak company. These contained
two platoons of 2 cm FlaK 38 on the I-ton semi-tracked vehicle Sd.Kfz.
10/5, two platoons of7.5 cmPaK 40/4 on Pz.]iigerRSO and one infantry
escort platoon. The 13th company of the 2nd regimen~ had only one
platoon each of these three types. The equipment of a platoon Pz]iiger
as explained by the former company chief First lieutenant Dr. von
Cramm was 3 SP7.5 cm RSOs, I mule for ammunition, I VWKubelfor
The 1 sI Ski-Jiiger-Brigade, which was enlarged to the 1 sI Ski-Jiiger-Divi-
sion in spring 1944, had in each of their two regiments, a 9th company,
which was later renamed after supply of the III. Battalion as the 13th
company, and was named Panzerjiiger-Flak company. These contained
two platoons of 2 cm FlaK 38 on the 1-ton semi-tracked vehicle Sd.Kfz.
10/5, two platoons of7.5 cmPaK 40/4onPz.JiigerRSO and one infantry
escort platoon. The 13th company of the 2nd regimen~ had only one
platoon each of these three types. The equipment of a platoon PzJiiger
as explained by the former company chief First lieutenant Dr. von
Crammwas3SP7.5 cmRSOs, 1 mule for ammunition, 1 VWKubelfor the platoon commander and 1 Kettenkrad (This company had another
vehicle of makeshift construction, called "Gazelle", Le. a 4.7 cm PaK
(r) on a 1-ton prime mover Sd.Kfz. 10 construction). Therefore the to-
tal of SP RSOs in these two Companies was 9. At least one SP RSO from
the 9th / 1 sI Ski-}iiger-Regiment (commander Obltn. Freiherr von
Cramm) survived the hard battles of this unit and the withdrawal from
the Pripet swamps up to Oberschlesien in 1945. Its commander Ober-
jiiger Helmut Kramm describes the withdrawl in the book "Die Deut-
schen Skijiiger" from G. Gunter on page 265 and the last days of his
unit in April and May 1945.

Cheers

Bob

[Mattias Rönnblom]

4/schw. Ski-Btl 1 showed 1 lmg, 4 T34 and 5 T43.

What does "T-43" mean here? (From what I understand the "real" Soviet T-43 tank never made it pass prototype stage.)

[Piet Duits]

Mattias,

The T43 was the T34 with a new turret and enlarged gun. Or, in other words, what we call the T34/85 today.

[laurence strong]

In 1943 when the T-43 was cancelled the Soviet command made the decision to retool the factories to produce a new model of T-34 with a turret ring enlarged from 1,425 mm (56 in) to 1,600 mm (63 in), allowing a larger turret to be fitted. I believe thats what it means.

[Kelvin]

After studying information from other members on 1.Skijager Division, I conclude that data below, any member see if it is correct ?

Schwere Ski Bataillon 1 :

1. kp : Marder
2.Kp : Grille
3.Kp : AA half track
4.Kp : T-34/76 and 85

And Each Regiment 's 13 company had six Pak -40 on RSO and three 4.7 cm on sd.kfz10

Correct ?

And anyone have organizaitonal chart on that division ?

[Alanmccoubrey]

Would we be safe in assuming that the 47mm on the SdKfz 10's were in fact 45mm Soviet guns ?

[Kelvin]

I try to find " Gazelle" RSO with 4.7 cm Pak data, but I cannot find about " Gazelle " Did Gazelle panzerjager was existed ?

Did Jan 1 1945 report mention whether this divison still had RSO tank destroyer ?