Döberitz, Gross Berlin, Kurmark & 30 Jan divisions

[Daniel McBride]

Would anyone care to give an informed guess as to the TO&E of these 1945 formations?

Many thanks,

DMcB

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Hi Daniel, "Kurmark's" composition changed a couple of times, at least, between the time of its formation and the final Battle for Berlin. Information on "30 Januar" and "Doberitz" is sketchy but covered in a German language book's on Wenck's Army--the English translation of the book's title is "Wenck's Army:Hitler's Last Hope". "Gross Berlin" I've never heard of. Either way, it's a lot of information to ask for in one post. Regards, David

[Daniel McBride]

Hi Daniel, "Kurmark's" composition changed a couple of times, at least, between the time of its formation and the final Battle for Berlin. Information on "30 Januar" and "Doberitz" is sketchy but covered in a German language book's on Wenck's Army--the English translation of the book's title is "Wenck's Army:Hitler's Last Hope". "Gross Berlin" I've never heard of. Either way, it's a lot of information to ask for in one post. Regards, David

Yes I hope I didn't overload the board. There seems to be some confusion about Kurmark the PzG unit and another one straight infantry. I had not heard of Gross Berlin either until I was thumbing through Ziemke's contribution to the Ballentine War series "The Battle of Berlin."
I'll try to get hold of the book on Wenck's army.
I take it that is an evil ISU-152 in your signature pic?

Thanks for the info.
Regards,

Daniel

[AHK]

The Gross Berlin ID was the ex-309.ID(Berlin). It was given the title Gross-Berlin in April,45. It consisted of: Wach Regiment GD
652, 653.Grenadier Rgts.
309.Artillerie Rgt.
309.Pzjg,Nach.Abteilungs
309.Fus.Pion.Blts.
Division Verorungs Rgt.



I have attempted to get information on the Kurmark Infantry Division on this forum, but all I get is the same response that there was only a Pzgren.Div. Still convinced that there was an infantry division!

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Hi Daniel! Well, I'm looking for an even eviler signature pic...
Seriously, I saw the earlier discussion about the Kurmark Infantry Division. I hadn't heard of that Division and haven't seen it listed for this time period, but I know that this, in itself, doesn't mean that the infantry divisiont didn't exist. I'll have a look around for some indication of it. I'll see if I can dig up anything that will help.
Best Regards, David

[Daniel McBride]

For AHK.

Here is the quote from Ziemke from his "Battle for Berlin" book in the Ballentine paperback series:

"In the Oder front east of Berlin, in the first week of February, Zhukov set to work improving his position for the drive across the river. By then, German IX Army had at least something to pit against him -- two panzer divisions hastily transferred from the West and four half-trained divisions that had been forming in the Berlin area, the divisions 'Döberitz', 'Kurmark', '30 January', and 'Gross Berlin'. Their names implied an elite status none of them possessed." (p.34)

In my notes tracking various formations like these in '45, I have the PzG division Kurmark provisionally first showing up around early March, likely at KG strength. Perhaps the confusion has already been identified by Mitcham in his book "Hitler's Legions", when he notes that Kurmark "was a panzer grenadier division in name only." (p.413).

As for 'Gross Berlin', can I ask where you got this information that it was the ex-309th ID? The last I heard, this division was disbanded after France. Up until now I had been guessing that 'Gross Berlin' might in fact be the 6th SS Polizei division created during the final battle from Berlin policemen. I had thought it might have been given this honourary title as well.

Regards,

Daniel

[Daniel McBride]

This has to be the ever-helpful and ebullient David of yore I am sure. Nice to see you have found a place suitable for your expertise here, and congratulations to Jason for the recent well thought-out changes. These obviously lay the foundations towards making this place an even more effective research locus, and it was fine to be begin with.

Re your quest for an even more evil image, might I suggest a picture of the mythical T-35 tank? 5 turrets on this beastie as I am sure you are aware....

Best Wishes,

Daniel

[Daniel McBride]

Almost forgot: re your signature line about needing to break a few eggs to make an omlette. Actually the French only use one. Why?
(drum roll)
Because un oeuf is un oeuf.

D.

[Paul Hanson]

Here what I could find:

A cadre of instructors and students from the SS Panzer and Panzergrenadier schools.
SS PG Regt 86 'Schill'
SS PG Regt 87 'Falke'
misc support units
Kampfgruppe 'Mosinger'
Kampfgruppe 'Rossner'

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Hi Daniel, it has been a long time, hasn't it?
Forget the Wenck book, I have an entry in Nafziger's for "Doberitz", which, by the way, fought along with "Panzergrenadier Division Kurmark" in the area around Klessin on the Oder. Nafziger says:

"Tessin says that this division was formed on 30 January 1945, to have the following units:
611th Division Staff z.b.V.
448th Panzer Vernichtungs Abteilung
1036th Artillery Regimental Staff z.b.V.
1/234th Artillery Regiment (163rd Infantry Division)
1184h Artillery battalion
1 Luftwaffe Mixed FlaK Battalion
Kampfgruppe 6/VIII (Pioneers)

However OKH records provide the following org anization as of February 1944:
Doberitz Infantry Division
Divisional Staff
300th Infantry Regiment
301st Grenadier Regiment
302nd Grenadier Regiment
303rd Panzerjager Battalion (later 920th Sturmgeschutz-Lehr-Brigade)
303rd Divisional Fusilier Battalion
309th Artillery Regiment
303rd Pioneer Battalion
303rd Signals Battalion
303rd Supply Troops
and 303rd(mot) Medical Company, 303rd Medical Supply Company, 303rd Vetrinary Company and 303rd (mot) Field Post Office." Nafziger, "The German Order of Battle: Infantry in WWII" Page 387.
Daniel, Nafziger's entry is most complete in terms of regimental and battalion organization and armament, sorry but I couldn't type in the entire page. If you need some particular information, just let me know. Very Best Regards, David (P.S., what I really want is some type of personalized insignia, but alas, time constraints have limited my ability to contribute lately.)

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Hi Daniel, "30 Januar" aka 32nd SS Freiwilligen Grenadier Division, also from Nafziger, but this time his dissappointing "Waffen SS and Other Units" volume, page 132:

"Formed starting on 1/30/45, and in the space of five days, with the 86th and 87th SS Regiments, by using Kampfgruppe Schill and the men drawn from the disbanded recruit depots in Kurmark. The artillery regiment came from the SS Artillery Training and Replacement Regiment in Prague. The pioneer battalion was formed from the Hradiscko Pioneer School. The Kampfgruppe Schill became the Panzergrenadier Regiment Schill in October 1944. It became the 86th SS Regiment. The Kurmark recruit Depot and other sources formed the 87th regiment. The 88th Regiment was to have been formed, but insufficient troops were found. The division had:
1/,2/ 86th SS Friewilligen Grenadier regiment
1/,2/ 87th SS Friewilligen Grenadier regiment
1/,2,/3/ 32nd SS Freiwilligen Artillery regiment
32nd Panzerjager Battalion (former 16th Ss Panzerjager Battalion)
32nd SS Fusilier Battalion
32nd SS FlaK Battalion
32nd SS Pioneer Battalion
32nd SS Signals Battalion
32nd SS Feldersatz Battalion
32nd SS Supply Regiment

Daniel, I hope this helps. Be Well And Best Regards, David

[Daniel McBride]

David,

I was just about to ask Paul for further information on '30th January' division (32nd SS PzG), specifically whether it had a Pz or PzJg btn, and you have answered all of that. Many thanks for the prompt response on these units. I have been meaning to finally get Nafziger's work; however, having that, along with the fact that an online research colleague has all of Tessin at home, would make it even less likely I continued with my weekly pilgrimage to the library.
Thanks again (thanks to Paul as well)

Regards,

Daniel

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Hi Daniel, it was the least I could do considering your gracious reply to my rather surly post. I think the problem is that I am frustrated by my lack of time to contribute to the forum.
On another note, I know from several reliable sources that Panzergrenadier Division Kurmark and "Doberitz" Infantry Division were involved in the same fight around Klessin to halt a Russian penetration of the West Bank of the Oder. Considering the quote from Ziemke, I'm afraid it seems to make it much less likely that there was an infantry division named "Kurmark". My recollection of the origin of Kurmark was that it was a Kampfgruppe of GD (I believe Willi Langkeit was the commander) that was enlarged into a fairly formidable Panzergrenadier Division after escaping encirclement on the East bank of the Oder.
Well, I don't want to ramble with my books upstairs, but I'm interested in your thoughts on the matter. Very Best Regards, David

[Daniel McBride]

My mistake on that one, sorry. I meant the 4th SS Polizei Division.

DMcB

[Daniel McBride]

David,

Again, many thanks for the detailed information. A larger issue I am concerned with here (and I will likely start another thread here--or perhaps you might suggest a more appropriate place) is that of the so-called "youth divisions". A regime in extremis will immediately draft its officer cadets into units and send them directly to the front; obviously, this is a very detrimental thing to do, with long-term affects upon that country's replacement system. The Soviets, in their darkest hours in 1941 and 1942, likewise were sending cadet brigades from officer training schools right to the front. I believe OKH had a codename for this activation: Visigoth or somesuch. In any case, here are some of the formations I am looking into and which I will post on:

Sharnhorst
Ulrich von Hutten
Friedrich Ludwig Jahn
Theodore Körner
Clauswitz
Potsdam

Actually, I guess I am posting about it already. Let me know where I should move this if needs be. Obviously this is a big topic as I am trying to get at the TOE of these units, and appearance. I suppose I am really after the officer training schools themselves, as at Potsdam for example, and the emergency units like these that were created in 1945.

Again thanks for your help.
Regards,

Daniel