A REALLY Hard One!!!

German unit histories, lineages, OoBs, ToEs, commanders, fieldpost numbers, organization, etc.

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Abel Ravasz
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Post by Abel Ravasz »

The Panzers should have come from 22. Pz.
The Pz38s of the PzVb 700

The origin of these panzers is unknown. There are two possibilities:

1. They got them from another unit
2. They got them from Germany (factory-fresh).

Let's discuss version #1. Who could be the previous owner of these tanks?
As we know, the unit recieved its components from 10. ID, 11. Pz, 19. Pz, 27. Pz and 22. Pz, as well as some personel from 14. Pz and 24. Pz. These are the units that are in play at the moment. Let's take them one by one.

a) 10. ID - did not operate this kind of Panzer, and the unit they gave to the PzVb was the PzSp Kp 700 - out of play.
b) 14. Pz and 24. Pz - did not operate this Panzer, and it seem that only personel like Hassel were diverted to this unit from them - out of play.
c) 11. Pz. Take a look at this link.
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=37643
As you can see from the data provided by the always helpful Andy Hill, this unit did not operate the Pz38 - out of play.
d) 19. Pz - As you could see in the above mentioned thread, they had approximately the same number of Pz38's in the Summer and November of '42, so it is extremely unlikely for them to be the suppliers - out of play.
e) 27. Pz - this was hard to determine, but finally I got it.
Quote:
Pz Verband 700 traf am 9 November mit ersten Teilen - im »E-TransEort über Kursk« herangeführt - bei 27 Pz Div ein Er zog im Raum um Nis neWeduga (nordöstlich Kastornoje) unter und begann mit seiner endgültigen Aufstellung, hierbei unterstützt durch AOK 2.
(As you can see, your info was crucial!)
As we know, the PzVb had the Panzer unit and the PzSp Kp. But, the PzSp Kp was formed only on Nov 20. So, the only unit that could be transported to them via rail was the Pz unit, so it couldn't have been part of this unit before - out of play!
f) 22. Pz - operated this kind of Panzer, was a constant supplier of equipment to 27. Pz.

We still have possibility no. 2 in play, but not for long. As we know, the PzVb had experienced constant technical difficulties with the Panzers, as well as lack of winter equipment. It is extremely unlikely that the brand-new Panzers would have an only 33% of them ready for use. Moreover, they wouldn't send a Pz unit to Southern Russia in October without a winter equipment! (the year is 1942, not '41).
The quote is from myself.

Please add your comments.

Best,

Abel
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Post by Shadow »

Abel Ravasz wrote:
It was transferred to the ranks of the 2. German army on 28 Nov 42 by the 27.Pz.

On 26 Dec 42 the unit was transferred to the 2. Hungarian army from the AOK 2, as proved by the Ia of that army. Until that time, the unit was part of the AOK 2 as proved by the Schem.Kriegsg. of AOK 2 available at http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de .

On 13 Jan 43 transferred back to AOK 2 from the Hungarian army.

Abel
Hello!
For what it's worth - above seems to be confirmed by Feldgrau CD's info which shows:

Schematische Kriegs-Gliederung:
22 Dec. 1942 -
A.O.K.-2:
direct unterstellt:
1/3 88
Verb. 700

Schematische Kriegs-Gliederung:
01 Jan. 1943 -
2.ung.(army):
direct unterstellt:
1.ung.pz.
2/3 168
Verb. 700

Hope this doesn't confuse issues! This is one of the most interesting, and informative, threads I've ever followed here!
If I'm not being too forward - great work everybody!! 8)
best regards -
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Leo Niehorster
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Post by Leo Niehorster »

As a new member, I send you all Greetings.
A few more facts to liven up the discussion. Enjoy.
I have added my translations in italics and my remarks in [square brackets].
Um auch den ung. GenStChef Szombathelyi zu befriedigen, versprach ihm das OKH die Verstärkung der ung. 2. Armee durch Neuzuführungen. Die Armee sollte in naher Zukunft folg. deutsche Verstärkungen zugefpührt werden:
In order to also satisfy COS Szobmathelyi [after the withdrawal of the XXIV. PzKorps on 17.12.42], the OKH promised to reinforce the Hungarian Second Army with new units. Within the near future the Army was to receive the following German reinforcements:
Panzerverband 700
Sturmgeschützabteilung 190 und 242
Artillerieabteilung (mot) 136
Panzerjägerkompanie 17, 106, 238 und 257
Heeres-Flak-Abteilung 272 und 292
eien Panzerkompanie Pz IV
Neben diesem deutschen Verbände versprach man Szombathelyi die Lieferung von 250 Pak 37 sowie 24 Pak schwereren Kalibers.
Besides these German units, Szombathelyi was promised the delivery of 250 light 37mm antitank guns and 24 heavier antitank guns.
SZOMBATHELYI, Ferenc
"Bericht über das Verhalten der ung. 2. Armee im Kriege gegen den Bolschewismus im Jahre 1942/43."
Unpublished, typewritten manuscript, 47 pages, 4 maps, (pages 1, 2, and 5 are missing)
--
Note: not all these units were sent. For exapmle, the PzJg Kp were not; none of the 250 light antitank guns was sent; and only one H-FlakAbt was dispatched, arriving in Ostragosk after the Soviet offensive had begun. This i.a.w.:
v. WITZLEBEN, Herman J.W.
"Bericht über die Erkenntnisse und Erfahrungen bei der Kgl. ung. 2. Armee Herbst und Winter 1942/43"
Unpublished, carbon copy of a typewritten manuscript, signed by the author, 19 pages.
Der Panzerverband 700 unter seinem Kommandeur Major HASSEL, welcher von der deutschen 2. Armee weggenommen wurde, hatte 50 Panzer 38(t) und eine 8-Rad-PzSpWg-Kompanie. Dieser Verband was seinerseit auf Vorschalg des damaligen Generals der Schnelle Truppen, des jetzigen Kdo.Gen. des Korps zbV, GenMaj Cramer, entstanden. Es sollte im Rahmen einer neu aufzustellenden Kavalleriedivision einen schnelle, leichte gepanzerte Reserve bilden und in der Gegend von Elista im Kaukasus zum Einsatz gelangen. Da die Kavalleriedivision nicht aufgestellt wurde, blieb der Verband auf dem Wege in den Kaukasus in der Gegend von Kastornoje, westlich Woronesch "hängen" und wurde dann dort aus zur ung. 2. Armee in Marsch gesetzt.
Panzerverband 700, under its commnder Hassel, removed from 2. Armee control, had 50 Pz-38(t) and an 8-wheel armored car company. The unit had been raised upon the recommendation of the former General of Mobile Troops, GenMaj Cramer, who was now commanding the Kdo.Gen. des Korps zbV. [aka as 'Corps Cramer'] It was to become a light, highly mobile reserve element of a new cavalry division, as yet to be raised. It was to be used in the the Caucasus around Elista. As the cavalry division was not raised, the Panzerverband had gotten hung up at Kastnoje, west of Worones. From this area, it was dispatched to the Hungarian Second Army.
Statement made personally to the author by Gen.dPzTr a.D. Cramer.
Last edited by Leo Niehorster on Fri Jan 16, 2004 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Michi
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Post by Michi »

@ Shadow,


I don't want to insult someone, but all these „schematischen Kriegsgliederungen“ are based on Tessin.
And I have to say Tessin is at that point not correct.
Dr. Leo NieHorster:
I have been using Georg Tessin's "Verbände und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS 1939-1945" since 1973, when I bought the first three volumes. Only a visit to the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv (the German federal military archives) in Freiburg i.Br. will allow you to get a feeling for the tremendous amount of work that has gone into making this work. It is an incredible compendium of astounding effort. If you are interested in German units in World War II, this is the published source. All other efforts pale in comparison.
I have the utmost respect for the person and work of the former Georg Tessin. Although he did type most parts of the manuscript, some parts were handwritten. From what I have seen of his handwriting, the traditional physician's scrawl is a refined copperplate in comparison. This unfortunate habit has mislead harried typesetters into incorporating a number of errors into the published books. In addition, more original sources have become available since the original volumes were finished. I also have the impression, (forgive me if this is untrue), that little if any proofreading was done. Over these many years, I noted errors, amendments, and changes which I offer here as my humble contribution to this magnificent work.
As Tessin is in German, I assume that you understand enough of that language to also understand the errata I have noted.
I have 15 volumes of Tessin here with me; its almost my sole source on the „schematischen Kriegsgliederungen“, but it's not perfect.
As an add-on on the Volumes 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5 Tessin did himself made corrections!

MfG Michi
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Michi
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WELCOME BACK!!!!!

Post by Michi »

Oh holy sh.t!!!


Mr. „Order Of Battle“ & „Tessin Errata“
Dr. Leo Niehorster is back!!


Welcome back!!



MfG Michi
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Post by Shadow »

Michi wrote:
Dr. Leo NieHorster:
If you are interested in German units in World War II, this is the published source. All other efforts pale in comparison. Over these many years, I noted errors, amendments, and changes which I offer here as my humble contribution to this magnificent work.

MfG Michi
:(
If the renowned Dr. Niehorster (who's name alone is mentioned in 72 entries in a "google" search :shock: ) states Tessin's information is flawed; and "all other efforts pale in comparison" - I guess the only way a person can be absolutely sure of accurate information on the subject is to take a few years off and bury yourself in the German archives.
:(
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Post by Shadow »

Leo Niehorster wrote:
Um auch den ung. GenStChef Szombathelyi zu befriedigen, versprach ihm das OKH die Verstärkung der ung. 2. Armee durch Neuzuführungen. Die Armee sollte in naher Zukunft folg. deutsche Verstärkungen zugefpührt werden:
In order to also satisfy COS Szobmathelyi [after the withdrawal of the XXIV. PzKorps on 17.12.43], the OKH promised to reinforce the Hungarian Second Army with new units. Within the near future the Army was to receive the following German reinforcements:
Panzerverband 700
Sturmgeschützabteilung 190 und 242
Artillerieabteilung (mot) 136
Panzerjägerkompanie 17, 106, 238 und 257
Heeres-Flak-Abteilung 272 und 292
eien Panzerkompanie Pz IV
Neben diesem deutschen Verbände versprach man Szombathelyi die Lieferung von 250 Pak 37 sowie 24 Pak schwereren Kalibers.
Besides these German units, Szombathelyi was promised the delivery of 250 light 37mm antitank guns and 24 heavier antitank guns.
Dr. N.
Shouldn't that read 17 December 1942?
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Leo Niehorster
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Post by Leo Niehorster »

Hi,
Yes, should indeed read 1942. :oops: :oops:
(No proofreaders here at the moment).
(Never lost for an excuse, either.) :wink:
Thanks for the note.
Leo
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Post by Shadow »

Dr. N. -
Believe me, I hesitated :oops: to point it out :oops: !
No excuses, from you sir, are ever required!
respectfully -
:D
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Michi
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Post by Michi »

@ Abel:

In a few hours I will send you a WORD-file via e-mail,
with all my arguments and views and theories about the 22. PzDiv & 27. PzDiv & PzVbd 700.


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jmark
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Post by jmark »

Hi there,

I have read this thread with great interest and believe I can contribute.

First of all, Major Hassel was from 14.Pz.Div. In fact, he was the commander of III./Pz.Rgt.36. If anyone is interested, I can supply more details about him.

I also have numerous documents relating to the formation of Panzerverband 700. This first one is dated 9. November 1942, 2215 Uhr and was sent from Abt. Ia Armee-Oberkommando 6 to 14.Pz.Div. [Source: T-312, Roll 1453, Frame 1349].

Betr.: Abgabe der für "Panzerverband 700" vorgesehenen Einheiten

1.) Die von 14. Pz.Div. für "Panzerverband 700" abzugebenden Einheiten
Stab u. Stabskp. III./Pz.Rgt.36 (vollständig)
1 mittl. Pz.Kp. (vollständig, aber ohne Panzer)
sind in Abänderung des bisherigen Befehls sofort im E-Transport
zum Panzerverband 700 in Marsch zu setzen.
2.) Einladebahnhof Ssurowikino ist im Landmarsch zu erreichen.
Verladebereitschaft ist fernmündl. voraus an AOK zu melden.
Durch Transportführer ist rechtzeitig Verbindung mit Bv.T.O.
aufzunehmen.
3.) Die befohlene Umgliederung des Pz.Rgts. ist nach Abschluß der Kämpfe
um Stalingrad durchzuführen.

Let me know if this stuff is interesting. If so, I'll write more.

Best wishes,

Jason Mark
Leaping Horseman Books
Specialising in books about Stalingrad and the Eastern Front
*** NEW BOOK! Croatian Legion ***
http://www.leapinghorseman.com.au
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Michi
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Post by Michi »

Let me know if this stuff is interesting.
No, it's not intersting. (this should be sarcartisc!)


Man, Jason, are you living on the moon??? :D :D
Of course we are (at least, I am) interested in any further informations you can share!!!!!!!!



MfG Michi


PS:
Today is lucky day.
First the comeback of Dr. Leo Niehorster
Second Jason Mark with infos (and asking if this is of interest!)
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Post by Shadow »

Michi wrote:
Of course we are (at least, I am) interested in any further informations you can share!!!!!!!!
Me too! :shock:
Just phoned the office to say I wouldn't be in - much more interesting watching this thread!
:wink:
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Post by laszlo.nemedi »

welcome back Mr. Leo Niehorster!

(maybe we can start a new thread for this event!)
Abel Ravasz
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Post by Abel Ravasz »

Jason,

your info is ABSOLUTELY fantastic!!! Thanks for posting it! Please post anything else you have in this topic!
Today is lucky day.
First the comeback of Dr. Leo Niehorster
Second Jason Mark with infos (and asking if this is of interest!)
Yes, a really lucky day!!! Welcome back Dr Niehorster!


Best,

Abel

P.S. But where is D.C.C.? :D
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